20/21 Norris finalists. Fox, Makar, Hedman. UPD: Fox wins

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

We certainly don't need an award named after Rod Langway. And IMO we don't need another major award in general.

Looking forward to when the next player like Orr comes along and revolutionizes the game. Defenseman who won the Art Ross twice and the Hart three times.

What’s wrong with a defensive dman award, for guys like Tanev? And what’s wrong with it being named for a defensive Dman?

Orr revolutionized the game, but at the same time he’s a huge reason defensive men aren’t recognized as much. TBF, I’m not sure he revolutionized the position as much as he was just unique at it. Not many guys after him played that way - Guys like Coffey, Karlsson, Subban sometimes would rush like Orr did, but nowhere near as often.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by CSharp

Wow, that means Tre gave up a lot for Lindholm!

I am guessing that the Flames would not have opted to trade Fox if there was an option that he would have signed. I think they got what they could for a player that was never going to play in Calgary.

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[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

What’s wrong with a defensive dman award, for guys like Tanev? And what’s wrong with it being named for a defensive Dman?

Orr revolutionized the game, but at the same time he’s a huge reason defensive men aren’t recognized as much. TBF, I’m not sure he revolutionized the position as much as he was just unique at it. Not many guys after him played that way - Guys like Coffey, Karlsson, Subban sometimes would rush like Orr did, but nowhere near as often.

Tanev is a nice player but we don't need to go looking for awards for players like that. The more awards there are, the less meaningful they are.

The names of the real NHL awards honor the history of the game. If you want to change that and honor the greatest players by naming awards after them, the list is awfully long before you get to Rod Langway.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Tanev is a nice player but we don't need to go looking for awards for players like that. The more awards there are, the less meaningful they are.

The names of the real NHL awards honor the history of the game. If you want to change that and honor the greatest players by naming awards after them, the list is awfully long before you get to Rod Langway.

Did you ever see Langway play D? He was maybe the best defensive defenceman ever. And it sucks that the Norris is never won by a player who excels at the key thing a defenceman does. Hell, the Selke awards always overlook forwards who played splendid D but just aren’t scorers like Barkov or Bergeron.

I don’t really care how many awards there are but if you are offended by the amount, get rid of the GM award, which is silly to hand out for one years work, get rid of the Lady Byng because who cares, get rid of Jennings because it’s not a meaningful individual stat, get rid of the Messier award, and why award a Ross or Richard trophy for winning the scoring or goal race - we all see who did it. And why is there both a Clancy and a Foundation award?

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Tanev is a nice player but we don't need to go looking for awards for players like that. The more awards there are, the less meaningful they are.

The names of the real NHL awards honor the history of the game. If you want to change that and honor the greatest players by naming awards after them, the list is awfully long before you get to Rod Langway.

I agree, but there is clearly a need for this awards.

There is only one award for defensemen. They are almost always overlooked for the Hart and Ted Lindsay.
There are way fewer goaltenders than defensemen in the league, yet there are two goaltending awards.

Defensive defensemen are an entire class of player that are almost entirely overlooked on awards. It makes sense to have an award designated to them. Especially when they often have huge impacts on team success.

I think this award should have been implemented in the 2000s when defensive defensemen like Regehr were more prominent. But still, never late than never.

Even this year. Look at the Hamilton-Slavin pairing. Almost anyone familiar with that team would tell you that Slavin is a much better defenseman than Hamilton. Yet Hamilton got the Norris votes.
When Tanev was playing with Hughes, Tanev got very little credit outside of western Canada.
Even for the 1980s Flames. I don't think people realize how important Brad McCrimmon was. From 1985 to 1989, the guy averaged about +55 per year. On two different teams. Crazy. Yet stinking Lowe is in the HOF...

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

I agree, but there is clearly a need for this awards.

There is only one award for defensemen. They are almost always overlooked for the Hart and Ted Lindsay.
There are way fewer goaltenders than defensemen in the league, yet there are two goaltending awards...

But, by this measure there is also only one award for forwards. In actual fact, the only NHL awards that are position-specific are the Vezina, Jenkins, Norris and the Selke. There are no criteria at all that prevent a defenseman from winning any of the Hart, Art Ross, Calder, or even the Rocket Richard trophy.

Another way to look at this is that of the twelve major NHL awards for players (Hart, Lady Byng, Vezina, Calder, Art Ross, Norris, Conn Smythe, Masterton, Selke, Jennings, King Clancy, Richard), forwards are eligible for nine, defensemen for nine, and goalies for eight.

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[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Did you ever see Langway play D? He was maybe the best defensive defenceman ever. And it sucks that the Norris is never won by a player who excels at the key thing a defenceman does. Hell, the Selke awards always overlook forwards who played splendid D but just aren’t scorers like Barkov or Bergeron.

I don’t really care how many awards there are but if you are offended by the amount, get rid of the GM award, which is silly to hand out for one years work, get rid of the Lady Byng because who cares, get rid of Jennings because it’s not a meaningful individual stat, get rid of the Messier award, and why award a Ross or Richard trophy for winning the scoring or goal race - we all see who did it. And why is there both a Clancy and a Foundation award?

I saw Langway play. Best defensive D man ever? Before Orr, that was all any defenseman did and they received an award for it. Best defensive dman of his era? There’s an argument for that. But I’ll take Lidstrom on my team long before Langway and it’s not because he had more points. Not contributing at all on offense doesn’t make Langway a better defender than the all time greats.

Sounds like you agree there are already too many awards. Let’s not add one named after Rod Langway.

Also Messier award is not a real award.

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

But, by this measure there is also only one award for forwards. In actual fact, the only NHL awards that are position-specific are the Vezina, Jenkins, Norris and the Selke. There are no criteria at all that prevent a defenseman from winning any of the Hart, Art Ross, Calder, or even the Rocket Richard trophy.

Another way to look at this is that of the twelve major NHL awards for players (Hart, Lady Byng, Vezina, Calder, Art Ross, Norris, Conn Smythe, Masterton, Selke, Jennings, King Clancy, Richard), forwards are eligible for nine, defensemen for nine, and goalies for eight.

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But as I said, they’re almost always overlooked for the Ted Lindsay and Hart. They realistically can’t win the Richard or Art Ross, at least not in this era.

This applies even moreso for defensive defensemen.
Slavin just won the Lady Byng. That’s pretty much the only award he can win. Maybe the leadership award or the perseverance award.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

But as I said, they’re almost always overlooked for the Ted Lindsay and Hart. They realistically can’t win the Richard or Art Ross, at least not in this era.



This applies even moreso for defensive defenseman.

How many "defensive forwards" do you imagine could realistically win any of the Hart, Richard or Art Ross?

The problem is not the awards themselves, it is the biases of the selectors, and these do change over time.

*EDIT* Also, I think it is worth pointing out that as important as "defensive defensemen" are to team success, they are never and never will be the best players on their team. It think it is pretty self-evident that the skill-set required to be an effective scoring defenseman is substantially higher than for those needed for preventing goals. To gain the kind of recognition that I think should be required of deserving a NHL award is to be among the best players in the league, and offensively challenged defensemen who are great in their own zone are simply not.

I agree with you, that in recent history the Norris Trophy has not been awarded accordingly, but the solution is not to create another award. The solution is for the selectors to enforce the criteria properly: the best defenseman is the one who excels at both ends of the ice.

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[Roof-Daddy]

It's absolutely ridiculous that the Flames biggest need on the blue line is a top pairing guy who can drive the offence from the back end, and despite drafting one of those in the 3rd round 5 years ago, we had to trade him as an add on and couldn't keep him because all he had to do was wait one more year and sign wherever the #### he wanted to.

The Flames could have....no SHOULD have had a Norris quality defenseman on their roster this past season who is STILL ON HIS ELC.

It's an absolute travesty that great drafting like that does nothing to help your team. Why eve have a ####ing draft if more and more high quality future NHLers are going the college route and can basically just choose their own destination if they want to, and no sense of loyalty to a team that drafts them?

This kind of #### makes me not want to follow sports anymore. My favorite team my whole life has been about as mediocre as you can get for the last 30 years, buteven when they do something right they don't get any benefit out of it.

Seriously. Imagine the Flames with a Norris quality Dman on their roster this past year eating up barely more than a league minimum contract. Does that move the needle when it was our biggest weakness on the back end? Yeah, it probably does.

It ain't right.

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

How many "defensive forwards" do you imagine could realistically win any of the Hart, Richard or Art Ross?

Good point. Defensive forwards also have it tough.
Although Crosby still seems to be relevant for Hart and Lindsey voting, despite not putting up big numbers anymore. I guess you could argue that's largely based on reputation or some other factors.

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I agree with you, that in recent history the Norris Trophy has not been awarded accordingly, but the solution is not to create another award. The solution is for the selectors to enforce the criteria properly: the best defenseman is the one who excels at both ends of the ice.

I am skeptical of something like this being pulled off, so I guess that's where we differ.
GMs seem to be more aware of who are good defensive players actually are. They are often picked for national teams and get real minutes.

Perhaps if the GMs/coaches voted instead of the writers, we'd see some change.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

Good point. Defensive forwards also have it tough.
Although Crosby still seems to be relevant for Hart and Lindsey voting, despite not putting up big numbers anymore. I guess you could argue that's largely based on reputation or some other factors.



I am skeptical of something like this being pulled off, so I guess that's where we differ.
GMs seem to be more aware of who are good defensive players actually are. They are often picked for national teams and get real minutes.

Perhaps if the GMs/coaches voted instead of the writers, we'd see some change.

As long as awards are voted on by writers, instead of panels or maybe GMs, the voting will be screwed up.

Hell, I always think the Selke probably doesn’t go to the best defensive forward, it goes to the best offensive forward who also happens to play decent D.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

It's absolutely ridiculous that the Flames biggest need on the blue line is a top pairing guy who can drive the offence from the back end, and despite drafting one of those in the 3rd round 5 years ago, we had to trade him as an add on and couldn't keep him because all he had to do was wait one more year and sign wherever the #### he wanted to.

The Flames could have....no SHOULD have had a Norris quality defenseman on their roster this past season who is STILL ON HIS ELC.

It's an absolute travesty that great drafting like that does nothing to help your team. Why eve have a ####ing draft if more and more high quality future NHLers are going the college route and can basically just choose their own destination if they want to, and no sense of loyalty to a team that drafts them?

This kind of #### makes me not want to follow sports anymore. My favorite team my whole life has been about as mediocre as you can get for the last 30 years, buteven when they do something right they don't get any benefit out of it.

Seriously. Imagine the Flames with a Norris quality Dman on their roster this past year eating up barely more than a league minimum contract. Does that move the needle when it was our biggest weakness on the back end? Yeah, it probably does.

It ain't right.

If it makes you feel any better, he probably would not be on his ELC anymore with the Flames. Their best hope of signing him was over two years ago and burning a year from his ELC in the process.

Of course I would take that in a heartbeat.

MLB does have similar issue. Guys go back in the draft all the time with the hope of improving their position and/or getting drafted by someone else. They don’t have standard elc’s so a guy like Fox would have undoubtedly wanted to go back in the draft and improve his position and rookie contract.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

Good point. Defensive forwards also have it tough.
Although Crosby still seems to be relevant for Hart and Lindsey voting, despite not putting up big numbers anymore. I guess you could argue that's largely based on reputation or some other factors.

What are you talking about? Sidney Crosby was #10 in League scoring this last season, has been scoring at a 1.20 pts/GP pace for the last three years, and has never in his 15-year-career come all that close to dropping below the 1.00 pts/GP threshold. By any measure a 34-year-old Sidney Crosby is STILL a tremendous offensive player.

I am skeptical of something like this being pulled off, so I guess that's where we differ.
GMs seem to be more aware of who are good defensive players actually are. They are often picked for national teams and get real minutes.

Perhaps if the GMs/coaches voted instead of the writers, we'd see some change.

This has not really been a problem until the last decade or so, and even then, since Nik Lidstrom's last Norris win in 2011 the trophy has been won by Drew Doughty (2016: #10 in defensemen scoring) and Viktor Hedman (2018: #5). Last year Roman Josi won on the strength of a 65-point season placing him second in scoring among defensemen, but I think anyone would be hard pressed to argue that he is not easily among the very best all-round blue liners in the entire League. Before his win, Mark Giordano edged out Brent Burns for the trophy despite the fact that Burns was only the second defenseman since 1996 to score 82-points in a season.

Again, I don't think this is a serious problem at all. The selectors are prioritizing scoring numbers on their ballots, but they rarely have been getting it wrong. That is to say that even in the present era the winner of the Norris trophy has pretty consistently been among the best all-round defensemen in the world.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

As long as awards are voted on by writers, instead of panels or maybe GMs, the voting will be screwed up.

Hell, I always think the Selke probably doesn’t go to the best defensive forward, it goes to the best offensive forward who also happens to play decent D.

Like I said above, the best "defensive forwards" are often so in large part because they are not good enough to score at a high level in the NHL. The NHL awards should all be reserved for the very best, most skilled players in the world, which will always preclude those players who play nothing but great defence, because this is the only way they could play in the NHL in the first place.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Like I said above, the best "defensive forwards" are often so in large part because they are not good enough to score at a high level in the NHL. The NHL awards should all be reserved for the very best, most skilled players in the world, which will always preclude those players who play nothing but great defence, because this is the only way they could play in the NHL in the first place.

I guess I differ in how I view great defensive players. I think it’s a skill, like goal scoring.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

I agree, but there is clearly a need for this awards.

There is only one award for defensemen. They are almost always overlooked for the Hart and Ted Lindsay.
There are way fewer goaltenders than defensemen in the league, yet there are two goaltending awards.

Defensive defensemen are an entire class of player that are almost entirely overlooked on awards. It makes sense to have an award designated to them. Especially when they often have huge impacts on team success.

I think this award should have been implemented in the 2000s when defensive defensemen like Regehr were more prominent. But still, never late than never.

Even this year. Look at the Hamilton-Slavin pairing. Almost anyone familiar with that team would tell you that Slavin is a much better defenseman than Hamilton. Yet Hamilton got the Norris votes.
When Tanev was playing with Hughes, Tanev got very little credit outside of western Canada.
Even for the 1980s Flames. I don't think people realize how important Brad McCrimmon was. From 1985 to 1989, the guy averaged about +55 per year. On two different teams. Crazy. Yet stinking Lowe is in the HOF...

Defensive defensemen don’t have an award because the owners don’t want to pay significant money to players who don’t show up on highlights every night.

[tvp2003]

I know a lot of posters aren't very high on Jake Boltmann, but he was scouted by Mike Craig and Jim Cummins (the latter was the same guy that insisted we take Fox).

Unfortunately, while Fox led all NCAA d-men in assists and points during his freshman season, Boltmann finished with << checks notes >> zero points in 19 games this year at Notre Dame. Huh.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I guess I differ in how I view great defensive players. I think it’s a skill, like goal scoring.

Yes. Defense is a skill, but it is NOTHING like goal scoring. It has much more to do with will and determination than it does with natural ability, which is why a good number of excellent defensive players do not score much. No one dreams about or hones his skills with the intention of peaking as a great defensive player. Great defensive players by and large work at perfecting this skill set because they are smart enough to recognize that their limited offensive skills will not carry them through a NHL career.

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[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Yes. Defense is a skill, but it is NOTHING like goal scoring. It has much more to do with will and determination than it does with natural ability, which is why a good number of excellent defensive players do not score much. No one dreams about or hones his skills with the intention of peaking as a great defensive player. Great defensive players by and large work at perfecting this skill set because they are smart enough to recognize that their limited offensive skills will not carry them through a NHL career.

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Oh, I think there’s a lot of natural ability involved in good D, and even more intelligence. And frankly I’d rather recognize hard work, determination and intelligence versus natural ability. I respect Tanev’s game more than McDavid’s.

I’m happy to just disagree and leave it there.