View Poll Results: What will happen to Brad Treliving after the end of the season?
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He should and will be fired
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167 |
17.06% |
He should be fired, but will continue as the Flames GM
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277 |
28.29% |
He should not and will not be fired
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288 |
29.42% |
He should not but will be fired
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27 |
2.76% |
Unsure if he should be, but he will be fired
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37 |
3.78% |
Unsure if he should be, but he will not be fired
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183 |
18.69% |
05-21-2021, 01:28 PM
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#3661
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Calgary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GioforPM
Nordstrom is almost as fast.
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Nordstrom is average speed. Reider has elite speed. You're really underselling the gap between the two in speed.
Quote:
Shorties? Reider has no shorthanded goals this year, and last year he had one with Calgary.
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Reider had 4 shorthanded goals in a Flames jersey.
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05-21-2021, 01:36 PM
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#3662
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Springbank
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GranteedEV
Nordstrom is average speed. Reider has elite speed. You're really underselling the gap between the two in speed.
Reider had 4 shorthanded goals in a Flames jersey.
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Right, he had 3 in the playin-POs, one shy of his career total. I missed that.
Nordstrom is, I bet, the second fastest skater among the forwards, after Dube.
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05-21-2021, 03:45 PM
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#3663
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Powerplay Quarterback
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Even Brad Treliving knows he needs to go.
In all seriousness- I don't think BT Is getting fired. It would have happened already.
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05-21-2021, 03:46 PM
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#3664
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: CGY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InternationalVillager
Even Brad Treliving knows he needs to go.
In all seriousness- I don't think BT Is getting fired. It would have happened already.
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It has been reported he has not had his review with ownership yet so I don’t think he is safe yet.
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05-21-2021, 03:58 PM
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#3665
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#1 Goaltender
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GranteedEV
Nordstrom is average speed. Reider has elite speed. You're really underselling the gap between the two in speed.
Reider had 4 shorthanded goals in a Flames jersey.
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Yep Nordstrom is probably about average, maybe above average tops. But there’s more to speed than just how fast a guy can skate, there’s turning, pivoting, acceleration and etc.
Even if Nordstrom has some decent top speed, he does nothing with it. Not relentless on the forecheck, no puck skills whatsoever, zero finish, not particular physical. Just a bench warmer who can block shots. That’s not a guy who does enough to win your team games. This teams needs more to get tocwhere they want. No more low standards from any of the 23 skaters the Flames ice.
Rieder gave the Flames above average production on the penalty kill, especially in a crucial time. That, I do like. That’s bringing something to the table.
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05-21-2021, 04:15 PM
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#3666
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Franchise Player
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I love the amount of hand wringing over forwards 11-15. The differences across the league are negligible.
Leivo, Nordstrom, and Ritchie all averaged 10:45-11:30 per night. All three had production
on par with their previous seasons (except Leivo with a pretty big drop in assists).
Obviously Simon disappointed, but he only ended up playing in 11.
I'm a little more concerned with the other 49 minutes.
Even the castigation against Dubé is a little silly; his counting numbers progressed over last year (though not as much as hoped). Obviously he wasn't as good as he was in the playoffs.
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05-21-2021, 04:22 PM
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#3667
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper
Yep Nordstrom is probably about average, maybe above average tops. But there’s more to speed than just how fast a guy can skate, there’s turning, pivoting, acceleration and etc.
Even if Nordstrom has some decent top speed, he does nothing with it. Not relentless on the forecheck, no puck skills whatsoever, zero finish, not particular physical. Just a bench warmer who can block shots. That’s not a guy who does enough to win your team games. This teams needs more to get tocwhere they want. No more low standards from any of the 23 skaters the Flames ice.
Rieder gave the Flames above average production on the penalty kill, especially in a crucial time. That, I do like. That’s bringing something to the table.
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Rieder rose to the occasion in the PO's. Just like we are seeing from guys like Lomberg and Dowd. It happens every year. There's a reasonable chance any of our maligned 4th liners would have done the same if this team were still playing.
Rieder chased the opportunity for a bigger role in BUF, and still couldn't really find "it". His numbers weren't much worse than Lazar...I'm sure BUF would have had no problem including him instead or as well in the Hall deal if BOS wanted him...
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05-21-2021, 04:32 PM
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#3668
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#1 Goaltender
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powderjunkie
I love the amount of hand wringing over forwards 11-15. The differences across the league are negligible.
Leivo, Nordstrom, and Ritchie all averaged 10:45-11:30 per night. All three had production
on par with their previous seasons (except Leivo with a pretty big drop in assists).
Obviously Simon disappointed, but he only ended up playing in 11.
I'm a little more concerned with the other 49 minutes.
Even the castigation against Dubé is a little silly; his counting numbers progressed over last year (though not as much as hoped). Obviously he wasn't as good as he was in the playoffs.
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This is the kind of free pass that allows the star players to be crushed on a regular basis and just keeps Canadian teams all over the NTC/NMC. If the Flames had better 4th line scoring production like the good teams have (i.e. Maroon - TBL, Spezza - TML), then the Flames would've been a much better team this season.
Seriously, where would the Flames be right now if they had the 30 points from Jason Spezza on the 4th line? We'd be a playoff team right now, that's where we'd be. The conversation would be about Toronto vs Calgary game 1 last night.
4th lines can be difference makers. If you have terrible 4th line production like we got from most guys that played down there, then that puts immense pressure on your top line to produce every single night and that's tough because we don't have elite superstars to begin with. So at the end of the day, we got what we deserved, a low scoring team that just missed the playoffs.
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05-21-2021, 04:33 PM
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#3669
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Springbank
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper
Yep Nordstrom is probably about average, maybe above average tops. But there’s more to speed than just how fast a guy can skate, there’s turning, pivoting, acceleration and etc.
Even if Nordstrom has some decent top speed, he does nothing with it. Not relentless on the forecheck, no puck skills whatsoever, zero finish, not particular physical. Just a bench warmer who can block shots. That’s not a guy who does enough to win your team games. This teams needs more to get tocwhere they want. No more low standards from any of the 23 skaters the Flames ice.
Rieder gave the Flames above average production on the penalty kill, especially in a crucial time. That, I do like. That’s bringing something to the table.
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You aren’t watching Nordstrom if you don’t like his forecheck, or say he’s not physical. He not only hits a lot, he hits hard. In fact, IMO his pucks skills as far as carrying and passing are pretty good. But the dude can’t shoot, nor create a tap in goal. Still, he scored the exact same amount as Reider this year, though I would think he had better linemates TBF, playing more with Backlund and Lucic towards the end of the year
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05-21-2021, 04:40 PM
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#3670
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#1 Goaltender
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powderjunkie
Rieder rose to the occasion in the PO's. Just like we are seeing from guys like Lomberg and Dowd. It happens every year. There's a reasonable chance any of our maligned 4th liners would have done the same if this team were still playing.
Rieder chased the opportunity for a bigger role in BUF, and still couldn't really find "it". His numbers weren't much worse than Lazar...I'm sure BUF would have had no problem including him instead or as well in the Hall deal if BOS wanted him...
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Rieder rose to the occasion in the playoffs because he also has the skillset to do so. He has underrated puck skills and finish. It's not high end or anything, but much like Paul Byron, he can break a game open with his speed and shorthanded scoring prowess.
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05-21-2021, 04:44 PM
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#3671
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Springbank
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper
This is the kind of free pass that allows the star players to be crushed on a regular basis and just keeps Canadian teams all over the NTC/NMC. If the Flames had better 4th line scoring production like the good teams have (i.e. Maroon - TBL, Spezza - TML), then the Flames would've been a much better team this season.
Seriously, where would the Flames be right now if they had the 30 points from Jason Spezza on the 4th line? We'd be a playoff team right now, that's where we'd be. The conversation would be about Toronto vs Calgary game 1 last night.
4th lines can be difference makers. If you have terrible 4th line production like we got from most guys that played down there, then that puts immense pressure on your top line to produce every single night and that's tough because we don't have elite superstars to begin with. So at the end of the day, we got what we deserved, a low scoring team that just missed the playoffs.
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Maroon had 4 goals. 2 of them were on the power play, where I imagine he stands in front of the net. How much difference did he really make?
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05-21-2021, 04:47 PM
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#3672
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#1 Goaltender
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GioforPM
You aren’t watching Nordstrom if you don’t like his forecheck, or say he’s not physical. He not only hits a lot, he hits hard. In fact, IMO his pucks skills as far as carrying and passing are pretty good. But the dude can’t shoot, nor create a tap in goal. Still, he scored the exact same amount as Reider this year, though I would think he had better linemates TBF, playing more with Backlund and Lucic towards the end of the year
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Alright sure, he's got some jam and physicality. But that doesn't make up for the lack of production we saw from him. He played with some really good centers this season too because of the slotting we saw this season, he played a lot with Backlund and Derek Ryan and his production was still awful.
I think if Rieder had a chance to play quality pivots like Backlund and Derek Ryan for an entire season, then he would've provided much more than what Nordstrom brought to the table.
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05-21-2021, 04:56 PM
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#3673
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#1 Goaltender
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GioforPM
Maroon had 4 goals. 2 of them were on the power play, where I imagine he stands in front of the net. How much difference did he really make?
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What, the 18 points didn't catch your eye? 18 points in 55 games while playing is 11 minutes a game is very commendable. That's good for a 27 point pace in an 82 game season. Well above the average.
Combine that with Tampa's elite talent and that's why they're Stanley Cup champions and we're left wondering why we can't get out of the first round or can't even get to the dance.
Talking about 4th liner's production isn't everyone's cup of tea, I get that. But I don't discount it either because the margin for victories is so small in today's game that a goal here or a goal there can make the difference between a few points in the standings which can ultimately decide who's in and who's out of the playoffs.
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05-21-2021, 04:57 PM
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#3674
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Springbank
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper
Alright sure, he's got some jam and physicality. But that doesn't make up for the lack of production we saw from him. He played with some really good centers this season too because of the slotting we saw this season, he played a lot with Backlund and Derek Ryan and his production was still awful.
I think if Rieder had a chance to play quality pivots like Backlund and Derek Ryan for an entire season, then he would've provided much more than what Nordstrom brought to the table.
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Maybe. He had Okposo on his line this year and they were both bad but Reider scored like half the points Okposo did. Ditto Cozens, and Sheahan. Heck, Lazar out produced Reider in 11 less games with the Sabres.
You can debate Nordstrom v. Reider but Reider wasn’t making a difference here, nor in Buffalo.
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05-21-2021, 05:05 PM
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#3675
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Springbank
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper
What, the 18 points didn't catch your eye? 18 points in 55 games while playing is 11 minutes a game is very commendable. That's good for a 27 point pace in an 82 game season. Well above the average.
Combine that with Tampa's elite talent and that's why they're Stanley Cup champions and we're left wondering why we can't get out of the first round or can't even get to the dance.
Talking about 4th liner's production isn't everyone's cup of tea, I get that. But I don't discount it either because the margin for victories is so small in today's game that a goal here or a goal there can make the difference between a few points in the standings which can ultimately decide who's in and who's out of the playoffs.
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Meh. TB is more of a 4 line team than any other in the league. They don’t make them all that way. Yes, their 4th line is better than Calgary’s. Guess what? So is their first line, their second line and their third line.
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05-21-2021, 05:25 PM
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#3676
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#1 Goaltender
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GioforPM
Meh. TB is more of a 4 line team than any other in the league. They don’t make them all that way. Yes, their 4th line is better than Calgary’s. Guess what? So is their first line, their second line and their third line.
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Yes, you've made the case that Treliving hasn't done a good job. But that's the attitude that needs to change around here. Winning in hockey is about the team outperforming/outproducing another team. So, if we want to ever win a Cup, then we can't have a team that has worser 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th liners, it needs to be the exact opposite.
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05-21-2021, 05:44 PM
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#3677
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Springbank
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Yes, we don’t want a “worser” team than the other team. I guess the question is - what causes a bigger problem - having a worse top 6 than the other teams or having a worse bottom 6. If we have a great bottom 6 but a mediocre top 6 I like our chances less than vice versa.
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05-21-2021, 06:16 PM
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#3678
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper
Rieder rose to the occasion in the playoffs because he also has the skillset to do so. He has underrated puck skills and finish. It's not high end or anything, but much like Paul Byron, he can break a game open with his speed and shorthanded scoring prowess.
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Perhaps it's inept management by BUF (and BOS), but going into the season BUF's middle 6 was pretty wide open. Yet Rieder couldn't earn more time than Sheahan, Lazar, Thompson, or Okposo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper
This is the kind of free pass that allows the star players to be crushed on a regular basis and just keeps Canadian teams all over the NTC/NMC. If the Flames had better 4th line scoring production like the good teams have (i.e. Maroon - TBL, Spezza - TML), then the Flames would've been a much better team this season.
Seriously, where would the Flames be right now if they had the 30 points from Jason Spezza on the 4th line? We'd be a playoff team right now, that's where we'd be. The conversation would be about Toronto vs Calgary game 1 last night.
4th lines can be difference makers. If you have terrible 4th line production like we got from most guys that played down there, then that puts immense pressure on your top line to produce every single night and that's tough because we don't have elite superstars to begin with. So at the end of the day, we got what we deserved, a low scoring team that just missed the playoffs.
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Spezza is a massive outlier. He's 27th in the league in pts/60 (11:01 per night).
To find the next guy under 13 mins (and at least half the season):
91. Sprong (11:40) WAS
110. Wahlstrom (12:23) NYI
So it's pretty clear Spezza would be playing more and earning more on any other team.
Who deviated more from their typical production levels? Top 6 or bottom 6?
JG/Lindholm were close to par
Backs/Monahan/Tkachuk down
Mangi Up
Lucic/Dubé up
Bennett up YOY (but still low)
Ritchie/Nordstrom/Leivo close to par (Leivo only down in assists)
Ryan way down
4/6 of the top guys were well down for most of the year. Johnny's late run got him back to normal(ish), and Mangiapane progressed.
Ryan's role was reduced and his production even more so. Otherwise everyone was as you would expect. Neither Dubé nor anyone else popped as we might have hoped. C'est la vie.
Looking back to our playoff failures, depth scoring hasn't been the thing holding us back, and it wasn't what held us back this season.
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05-22-2021, 12:40 AM
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#3680
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Powerplay Quarterback
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I don't get the earlier parallels being drawn between the Oilers and Flames with regards to personnel decisions. My impression was always that the Oilers were mocked for an incestuous commitment to hiring and retaining members of the "glory era" for management positions - the idea of shifting Treliving to another position within the organization doesn't resemble that at all.
If Treliving were to become, say, POHO, painting a move like that as "rewarding failure" is an oversimplification if you ask me. There are myriad reasons why an individual may be suited to one role more than another, and if ownership happens to think that Brad's good people who could be well suited to a different job, then simply banishing him from the organization may not be the route to take. Smuggling in this notion of what's "deserved" ("he deserves to be fired altogether for the team's performance") sort of misses that point if you ask me.
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