So there is ONE core guy traded this summer...who do you choose?

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by zamler

Karlsson and Marchessault are a potent 1-2 punch. They don't put up huge points but are good at both ends of the ice.

Originally Posted by SeanCharles

March isn’t a C tho.

They have Chandler Stephenson as their current #1C.

I’m sure Glass/Krebs will end up there but for now they’ve rolled out middle six centres to go along with their elite wingers.

Minnesota and Vegas are getting by with great wingers, strong defence and goaltending, something I don’t think is far fetched to say we (could) have.

Originally Posted by zamler

He's listed as playing center position.

Originally Posted by SeanCharles

Yea I’m sure he played it in junior and had a couple looks at it in the NHL but in general he has played W.

Pacioretty-Stephenson-Stone
Marchessault-Karlsson-Smith

Grass is always greener on the other side, even if it isn’t grass.

[GS Skier]

Tkachuk. Best return because of his rep and PAST scoring. He's still young and re-signing him with a "raise" is poor value.

Sutter has said repeatedly he builds down the middle. Lindholm, Backlund and Monahan are all his type of 2 way centers. Gaudreau has figured out how to play under his system finally and Gaudreau does drive some play, Tkachuk doesn't. Not a fan of Chuckys skating either.

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

I am trying to think of one realistic reason why Johnny would sign a “team-friendly “ extension.

Wanting to play for and win with the Flames. Trying to cash in as much as he can is good for him but limits who else the team can bring in.

But we really don't know if Johnny loves playing for the Flames as much as he says or if he's just sucking up to the fans.

[Jore]

Originally Posted by SeanCharles

How is Vegas such a great team without a #1C?

Minnesota?

Not saying we shouldn’t do our darnedest to get one if possible but all this talk about it being impossible to win without one meanwhile those are two of the top teams and Vegas has shown they can win in the playoffs without one.

Well Minnesota has traditionally been as mediocre as Calgary, I'd wait to see how they do in the playoffs before calling them a "great team."

Vegas is extremely deep through the expansion draft and in an extremely desirable location. Plus they have a one-of-a-kind game changer on the wing in Stone. Even then Karlsson is just about better all-round than all the C that the Flames have. Also Vegas hasn't won the cup yet, and even if they did they would be the only team in a few decades to win without a true #1C. Not exactly a viable or the most consistent model of team building for the Flames to emulate.

[Macho0978]

It probably will have to be Gaudreau as his NTC kicks in before he can be resigned. IMO what I do with Tkachuk is based on how willing he is to stay here. If his agent has no interest in resigning this off season and the starting point in the negotiations is at or above the $9mil QO then IMO he needs to go.

It would be nice to have the same luxury with Gaudreau and if he really wanted to stay and resigned a reasonable deal I would keep him. But that NTC kicking in before we can extend him makes it hard to wait until after draft day. I guess a team that he wants to resign with is more likely to trade more for him in the off season and would be a team he would waive to go to. Maybe Treliving can wait and see but it is a bit of a risk unless they are willing to talk extension before NTC kicks in and sign it day one that he is eligible to sign. But Treliving has a history of playing hardball and dragging out contract extensions and he did it with Johnny in the past so I doubt they will be willing to talk that early.

Trade both for cost control players and prospects/picks and move on with a good prospect pool, tons of cap space and spots available for our endless supply of winger prospects. Until we draft a star center we can be patient in moving Monahan or Backlund. Without Johnny and Tkachuk this team will be getting top draft picks.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by SeanCharles

March isn’t a C tho.

They have Chandler Stephenson as their current #1C.

I’m sure Glass/Krebs will end up there but for now they’ve rolled out middle six centres to go along with their elite wingers.

Minnesota and Vegas are getting by with great wingers, strong defence and goaltending, something I don’t think is far fetched to say we (could) have.

I agree that some say it is a must to have an elite center and I don't agree that it's impossible to win without one. IMO if you have star goaltending, top end dmen and tons of depth on forward you can win and be a contender. I just think and most probably agree that if you are going to rebuild it is easier to build a contender with a elite #1 center. IMO the value of guys like McDavid, Matthews, Mackinnon, Barkov are way higher than elite wingers.

If the Flames start a rebuild and it works out that they are loaded on d and wingers with solid centers then I guess we can roll with that and see how it goes. I just feel right now none of our forwards are elite including the wingers, none of our d are higher end future 60+ point dmen or norris calibre dmen. Even Markstrom is probably never going to be a vezina goalie. Too much average on this team and they only way to fix that is to fix our prospect pool which right now is ranked well below average

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

I am trying to think of one realistic reason why Johnny would sign a “team-friendly “ extension.

Presumably that means signing a contract for less term and cap than he could realistically get on the open market.

Now, players sign contracts all the time for cap hits that turn out to be great deals, but how many elite players who are close to UFA actually sign contracts which stunned us at the time as being below market?

What does a team friendly contract actually look like for Johnny?

I am fine with anything up to 6 years and 8M/yr or under. So 6 years/48M I feel is fair. He can still play in Philly down the road if he wishes near the end and they may even need him by then because I don't see the fit now.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Jore

Well Minnesota has traditionally been as mediocre as Calgary, I'd wait to see how they do in the playoffs before calling them a "great team."

Vegas is extremely deep through the expansion draft and in an extremely desirable location. Plus they have a one-of-a-kind game changer on the wing in Stone. Even then Karlsson is just about better all-round than all the C that the Flames have. Also Vegas hasn't won the cup yet, and even if they did they would be the only team in a few decades to win without a true #1C. Not exactly a viable or the most consistent model of team building for the Flames to emulate.

Vegas has gotten by on a great team game, great goaltending out of MAF (look at their record when they were were winning when he didn’t start, and a good team concept out of the gate. Interestingly, I don’t know that Stone has improved their record that much. I guess some, but they haven’t repeated year one ever.

I’m with you on Minnie. A completely mediocre team, especially post season. The last time they made round two was under Yeo. Boudreau, a guy lots of people wanted, couldn’t get them past round one ever. They’re having a very good regular season this year, but they are relying too heavily on goaltending (tied for 7th in save% with a Winnipeg and Edmonton, and like Edmonton, I’m not confident that the goalie can keep it up). 21st place in GAA. Outshot on average. It seems like a recipe for an early exit to me.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by SeanCharles

March isn’t a C tho.

They have Chandler Stephenson as their current #1C.

I’m sure Glass/Krebs will end up there but for now they’ve rolled out middle six centres to go along with their elite wingers.

Minnesota and Vegas are getting by with great wingers, strong defence and goaltending, something I don’t think is far fetched to say we (could) have.

I actually have thought about the Vegas model in that they don’t really have a #1 center yet are still an elite team and I’ve come to the conclusion that its ultimately their team speed and depth everywhere else in the lineup that helps them win.

They played a really similar style to the one Ward/Peters deployed here in which they want the team to be very connected, so regardless of who plays center or wing, they’re always positionally in a place to defend well and apply pressure.

The big difference between the Flames and Knights is speed. The Knights absolutely hound pucks with their relentlessness and team speed whereas the Flames are as slow as molasses. They can’t track back fast enough nor do they apply nearly enough pressure on the opposition in their own zone which ironically fed the opposition.

Treliving built this team to play like Vegas, but he did not pick the right horses to do so. They gas out half way into a lap whereas Vegas can run a whole lap at the same pace no problem. I’ve been complaining about team speed for an eternity here and its the same reason I’m still shocked Paul Byron was waived. He plays like a Vegas Golden Knight and we gave him away for nothing so we could build this confusingly slow team. The idea was similar, but the execution, no. That’s why we’re not Vegas, not even close.

[GioforPM]

There was one time when I thought the Flames played a Vegas style. It was when they went overseas to play the Bruins under Peters. It didn’t last long.

[DomeFoam]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

This line of thinking is akin to not wanting a defenseman who’s prone to being on the other end of a highlight reel goal. All you see is that, so it begins to cloud the true judgment of the player.

I don’t doubt that Gaudreau bails out on the occasional play to avoid a hit, but it’s not an every shift problem and I think it mostly applies mostly to teams like the Blues or the Stars who play a very heavy game.

The past 5 or so Montréal games played out very much like a playoff series and I thought Gaudreau was one of the most dangerous players on the ice. He certainly scored some game breaking goals that very few players on this team can pull off. So you have to really ask yourself, are you ok with losing the team’s most dynamic game breaker because he bails on a few hits from time to time? If so, where do the goals come from next year?

AKA teams you must go through to go far in the playoffs. I'm okay trading Gaudreau because his game just does not translate to playoff hockey. Which is the whole point of cheering for a team, in hopes of one day wearing the crown.
I think people are really against trading him because the team will be heavily devoid of skill in the long regular seasons to come, but I think we need to accept the short term pain of losing him to restart and try again with the high end assets we'd get back before his value starts to diminish.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by DomeFoam

AKA teams you must go through to go far in the playoffs. I'm okay trading Gaudreau because his game just does not translate to playoff hockey. Which is the whole point of cheering for a team, in hopes of one day wearing the crown.
I think people are really against trading him because the team will be heavily devoid of skill in the long regular seasons to come, but I think we need to accept the short term pain of losing him to restart and try again with the high end assets we'd get back before his value starts to diminish.

Would you like to get to the playoffs though? Because that’s what he does, he can get you to, but he will need help to get through the playoffs. But one thing I’m certain of, he’s been the main reason why the Flames have actually been a competitive team over the last 7 years. This team made the playoffs in his rookie year, not a coincidence in my opinion. His dynamic play and ability to break games wide open and produce at even strength, has ensured that the Flames aren’t a basement dweller in the goal scoring department every year.

Now you might be right in that he can net the team a lot of assets. If the team does decide to rebuild, then im all for trading him. If the team wants to be competitive next season though, they’re gonna need him.

[DomeFoam]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Would you like to get to the playoffs though? Because that’s what he does, he can get you to, but he will need help to get through the playoffs. But one thing I’m certain of, he’s been the main reason why the Flames have actually been a competitive team over the last 7 years. This team made the playoffs in his rookie year, not a coincidence in my opinion. His dynamic play and ability to break games wide open and produce at even strength, has ensured that the Flames aren’t a basement dweller in the goal scoring department every year.

Now you might be right in that he can net the team a lot of assets. If the team does decide to rebuild, then im all for trading him. If the team wants to be competitive next season though, they’re gonna need him.

I think if hes gone next year we will have to watch Calgary try and squeeze in without him, which will be interesting to watch to see if guys like Lindholm and Tkachuk can step up.

That said, they didn't get there even with him on the roster this year, so really how much would we even miss him during the regular season? It'll be boring as a fan, but I don't see Gaudreau put the team on his back much these days. His last three point game was in October 2019.

[SeanCharles]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

Grass is always greener on the other side, even if it isn’t grass.

When I read this I thought you were making a pun about Glass lol

[Vedder]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Honestly I think you need to hold on Monahan.

His value looks to have bottomed out given the last two seasons. I'd let him bounce back a nudge and get another team excited that there's more to come.

We've likely already seen that with Gaudreau and his final quarter of this season.

There's no signs of life there though. He can't create offense at even strength. The declining trends on this date back to Peters I think. I'm sympathetic to the injury argument, except he is still taking faceoffs...Johnny has benefited away from him but was terrible with him.... Are we going to saddle one of our better players with him for another season to the team's detriment, hoping for a dead cat bounce?

Sounds like Brad has actively been trying to trade him for a while (Buffalo, Columbus rumors). I think the team has come to the conclusion to cut ties with more context and information than we have. The rumored return on Buffalo trade was super underwhelming. I think the league has figured him out.

Sutter didn't even have him on the ice for the 6v5 with the season on the line on Saturday.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by DomeFoam

I think if hes gone next year we will have to watch Calgary try and squeeze in without him, which will be interesting to watch to see if guys like Lindholm and Tkachuk can step up.

That said, they didn't get there even with him on the roster this year, so really how much would we even miss him during the regular season? It'll be boring as a fan, but I don't see Gaudreau put the team on his back much these days. His last three point game was in October 2019.

Haven't we seen enough Lindholm and Tkachuk without Gaudreau this season? They were awful, it's part of the reason why this team has been a failure this season, they had absolutely no chemistry in the line up all year long.

Look at Lindholm's numbers, 8 goals in his last 10 games. Prior to that, Lindholm had 9 goals in 40 games. He's basically scored half of his season's goals in a very short time frame since Gaudreau joined that line. This has also been the best Tkachuk has looked this season in my opinion and that's mostly due to Gaudreau because he is unequivocally, the straw that stirs the drink of this team. What line he joins, he elevates his linemates, that is a play driver to me and the Flames don't have enough of those.

Without Johnny Gaudreau, this team would be one of the worst scoring teams in the league, even worse than they are now which is hard to believe. He may not have a 3 point game in some time, but when the season was on the line and the team needed him the most, he has a 7 game point streak and 12 points in his last 10 games. Not bad for a team that plays a stifling defensive system.

[InternationalVillager]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Haven't we seen enough Lindholm and Tkachuk without Gaudreau this season? They were awful, it's part of the reason why this team has been a failure this season, they had absolutely no chemistry in the line up all year long.

Look at Lindholm's numbers, 8 goals in his last 10 games. Prior to that, Lindholm had 9 goals in 40 games. He's basically scored half of his season's goals in a very short time frame since Gaudreau joined that line. This has also been the best Tkachuk has looked this season in my opinion and that's mostly due to Gaudreau because he is unequivocally, the straw that stirs the drink of this team. What line he joins, he elevates his linemates, that is a play driver to me and the Flames don't have enough of those.

Without Johnny Gaudreau, this team would be one of the worst scoring teams in the league, even worse than they are now which is hard to believe. He may not have a 3 point game in some time, but when the season was on the line and the team needed him the most, he has a 7 game point streak and 12 points in his last 10 games. Not bad for a team that plays a stifling defensive system.

- Gaudreau is 27 years old (turning 28).
- From the eastern seaboard.

Do you want to commit to a 7-8 year contract or do you come to the conclusion that this core isn't good enough and try to get what you can/restart with building a new core? I believe it has to start with Gaudreau due to his contract situation.

[DomeFoam]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Haven't we seen enough Lindholm and Tkachuk without Gaudreau this season? They were awful, it's part of the reason why this team has been a failure this season, they had absolutely no chemistry in the line up all year long.

Look at Lindholm's numbers, 8 goals in his last 10 games. Prior to that, Lindholm had 9 goals in 40 games. He's basically scored half of his season's goals in a very short time frame since Gaudreau joined that line. This has also been the best Tkachuk has looked this season in my opinion and that's mostly due to Gaudreau because he is unequivocally, the straw that stirs the drink of this team. What line he joins, he elevates his linemates, that is a play driver to me and the Flames don't have enough of those.

Without Johnny Gaudreau, this team would be one of the worst scoring teams in the league, even worse than they are now which is hard to believe. He may not have a 3 point game in some time, but when the season was on the line and the team needed him the most, he has a 7 game point streak and 12 points in his last 10 games. Not bad for a team that plays a stifling defensive system.

Well thats the thing, if you trade Gaudreau you expect the team to suffer. Someone has to make that decision, or we can hold on to him until hes 34 and acquire Ben Hanowski for him.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Vedder

There's no signs of life there though. He can't create offense at even strength. The declining trends on this date back to Peters I think. I'm sympathetic to the injury argument, except he is still taking faceoffs...Johnny has benefited away from him but was terrible with him.... Are we going to saddle one of our better players with him for another season to the team's detriment, hoping for a dead cat bounce?

Sounds like Brad has actively been trying to trade him for a while (Buffalo, Columbus rumors). I think the team has come to the conclusion to cut ties with more context and information than we have. The rumored return on Buffalo trade was super underwhelming. I think the league has figured him out.

Sutter didn't even have him on the ice for the 6v5 with the season on the line on Saturday.

100%.

I think even Sutter has had enough of Monahan's lack of production. He only played him like 14 minutes last Saturday in a do or die game.

The Gaudreau-Lindholm-Tkachuk line has been an absolute revelation. Lindholm looks like he could score 40 on this line. He just needs to work on his one timer a bit, timing, accuracy, getting lost in coverage and I think he could be a top end finisher.

They really should've traded Monahan after 18-19, his value was never higher. If Treliving focused a little more on his forward group rather than concentrating so much on defense and goaltending, this team might be in the playoffs. He spent so much time and cap space on Markstrom so that the goaltending position could be a strength, but it hasn't been a strength, it's been adequate.

The scoring on the other hand was a weakness, always has been (minus one season) and he's ignored the position in contrast. Adding all these league minimum forwards to fill out extremely important positions when he could've tried for Toffoli instead...I mean you get what you pay for right? It's actually quite fitting that Toffoli put the nail in the coffin against the Flames, maybe then management will actually pay some attention to that side of the game instead of slapping together a bunch of crappy lines and just hoping for results. Such a terrible game plan going into this season.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by InternationalVillager

- Gaudreau is 27 years old (turning 28).
- From the eastern seaboard.

Do you want to commit to a 7-8 year contract or do you come to the conclusion that this core isn't good enough and try to get what you can/restart with building a new core? I believe it has to start with Gaudreau due to his contract situation.

Like I said, if this team wants to rebuild, trade him and all the other valuable pieces. Burn it to the ground and try to pick the Shane Wrights and Connor Bedards of the world. I'm very ok with that.

But if this team wants to win next year, then I'm trying to keep Gaudreau. If this team wants to win with just a Lindholm, Tkachuk, Monahan, Backlund and some young guns. Good night, I'm out. This team would be a middling disaster.