2021 Off season: You're in charge, what would you do?

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Tank. Could you imagine a team with Brandt Clarke and Shane Wright on it? That could be a real thing if we pull out the stops and tank

It might be as good as a team with Pavel Brendl and Neil,Yakapov.

Or not.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[robertsfanatic]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

It might be as good as a team with Pavel Brendl and Neil,Yakapov.

Or not.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

thanks for saying this, nothing is guaranteed.

[blender]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

But at what stage can you not separate the player's performance from the player himself?

For some of these players, their performance issues have gone on for quite a length of time. At some stage, the players become their performance level.

And one of the problems is that in some cases the trade deadline for these players is fast approaching. There may not be enough time to establish that some of these players performance level hasn't become the player himself.

And in some cases, the drop off is so severe that the assumption will be negative until proven otherwise.

All fair points, but then we see Bennet explode and you can't help but wonder...

Mojo is a hell of a drug. Look at Nashville this season.
Or St Louis in 19. Or the Flames in 19. All those teams went from good to bad or bad to good overnight with the same players.

Doesn't mean you don't need the right parts to succeed, but performance is sometimes voodoo.

[Jore]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

It might be as good as a team with Pavel Brendl and Neil,Yakapov.

Or not.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Wow, great point, much better to lock up the 15th pick every year like the Flames have been doing for decades. Our success speaks for itself. Who wins cups and playoff rounds with top picks anyway?

[Vinny01]

With how quickly this fanbase had turned on Tkachuk I have zero confidence there is patience to go through the necessary rebuild these same fans claim to want. The guy went from future captain to must trade for a bunch of you due to 50 games. I don’t see how that same fan can be patient to sit through more than 5 years of being the joke of the league.

This team was in their rebuild in 2013-2016 basically 4 seasons. They stripped it down in 13 and started to spend picks on older players in the summer of 16. In the 2018/19 season they had 5 picks in the top 6 of the draft in their tank years. Lindholm and Monahan from 13, Bennett from 14, Hanifin from 15 and Tkachuk from 16. If they tank for the next 5 years there is certainly no guarantee they get 5 better players than that group.

[Poe969]

This team hasn't really gone through a rebuild in a long long time. All they've done is retool, tget still have Gio, Backlund, and they had Brodie until this year. This team has done a retool after retool, just tinkering here and there when they get a chance, to me a rebuild is when they get rid of their top players and try to have a whole new team...and that's what this team needs. I think fans have lost patience with this team because they haven't really done a rebuild in a long time. As for Tkachuck, I've lost patience with him for a few reasons and the main one is his contract. He hasn't shown he will be worth 9 mill which would put this team in a really bad spot.

This team needs to move on from the team identity they have because their identity is "uhhh?" This team isn't really skilled, really hard working, really hard to play against and it isn't even really bad. They need to get rid of Treliving and most of the vets on this team. They need to start fresh....they won't and we'll have this same conversation next year just like we have for a few years.

[tkflames]

Originally Posted by Poe969

This team hasn't really gone through a rebuild in a long long time. All they've done is retool, tget still have Gio, Backlund, and they had Brodie until this year. This team has done a retool after retool, just tinkering here and there when they get a chance, to me a rebuild is when they get rid of their top players and try to have a whole new team...and that's what this team needs. I think fans have lost patience with this team because they haven't really done a rebuild in a long time. As for Tkachuck, I've lost patience with him for a few reasons and the main one is his contract. He hasn't shown he will be worth 9 mill which would put this team in a really bad spot.

This team needs to move on from the team identity they have because their identity is "uhhh?" This team isn't really skilled, really hard working, really hard to play against and it isn't even really bad. They need to get rid of Treliving and most of the vets on this team. They need to start fresh....they won't and we'll have this same conversation next year just like we have for a few years.

I don't think that's fair. You are never even during a rebuild going to get rid of your good young players, just for the point of change. Calgary got rid of their entire core Iginla, Bouwmeester, Kipper at the time. Backlund and Brodie were 23 and 22 respectively. The only older guy was Gio and he has won a Norris trophy since...

[Flames1217]

Originally Posted by Jore

Wow, great point, much better to lock up the 15th pick every year like the Flames have been doing for decades. Our success speaks for itself. Who wins cups and playoff rounds with top picks anyway?

I mean Barzal would be pretty cool.

Drafting position does play in things but you can find great players around pick 15.

[Steve Bozek]

I like Matthew Tkachuk, and will always remember the time he fooled Sidney Crosby to set up an overtime winner, or the between the leg shot for a big goal. And he seemed to be showing progression of his skills over his time on the team. But that contract, which might have looked good if his play had shown continued growth, now looks very similar to what the Lucic contract must have looked to the Soilers after year 2. The contract makes him almost untradable, and a buy-out really isn’t in the cards. Current level of play isn’t worth anywhere near the $7M required for the next year of service, and if that’s the new Matthew, then you have to bite the bullet and lose him as a free agent. The $9M needed to retain him beyond 1 year is far too steep a price to pay unless he miraculously turns into a scoring machine. I think the Flames are stuck with him and just have to hope that this season was an aberration.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Jore

Wow, great point, much better to lock up the 15th pick every year like the Flames have been doing for decades. Our success speaks for itself. Who wins cups and playoff rounds with top picks anyway?

You missed my point entirely.

Getting early picks in the draft do not endure elite players. The poster seemed to assume getting certain players assured a dynamic team.

Of course early picks are better than later picks and the Pope is Catholic.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

It might be as good as a team with Pavel Brendl and Neil,Yakapov.

Or not.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

You have to aim high. It's clear that this organization lacks the elite talent required to compete for a Stanley Cup and unfortunately there's only one way to acquire that talent. I would rather watch a young team like the Senators improve than a team like the Flames floundering year after year as outside of the one Peters season it's been painful watching this team post-Hartley.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by tkflames

I don't think that's fair. You are never even during a rebuild going to get rid of your good young players, just for the point of change. Calgary got rid of their entire core Iginla, Bouwmeester, Kipper at the time. Backlund and Brodie were 23 and 22 respectively. The only older guy was Gio and he has won a Norris trophy since...

There were other guys, like Wideman.

The more important part of a rebuild is that you collect assets for several years and trade everything of value that you don't think you need after the rebuild.

You don't trade away draft picks every season after the first and keep guys like Dennis Wideman around for four seasons until they retire.

What we did was still a quick retool and not a rebuild.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

With how quickly this fanbase had turned on Tkachuk I have zero confidence there is patience to go through the necessary rebuild these same fans claim to want. The guy went from future captain to must trade for a bunch of you due to 50 games. I don’t see how that same fan can be patient to sit through more than 5 years of being the joke of the league.

The fanbase turned on Gaudreau just as fast and he's accomplished a lot more than Tkachuk. It seems like too many fans have Tkachuk on a pedestal but he's no more special than other players. Remember he's the one that wanted the bridge contract to get to free agency quicker. Hard to give a guy the captaincy when his main focus appears to be cashing in at free agency as soon as possible.

The Flames have been mediocre for decades and since Treliving has taken over have had one season where they were a comfortable playoff team. The rest of the time they have been a fringe team and getting worse year after year. I don't know about you but I would gladly take a few painful seasons of rebuild over the current painful seasons of mediocrity. Outside of Peters first season, the team hasn't been fun to watch in pretty well every season post-Hartley. I'm not sure why any fan would want to sign on for a continuation of what we have seen this season and make no mistake this team may not be rebuilding but they are no better than a rebuilding Ottawa team so if the team is going to be bad they may as well do things right.

[N-E-B]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

With how quickly this fanbase had turned on Tkachuk I have zero confidence there is patience to go through the necessary rebuild these same fans claim to want. The guy went from future captain to must trade for a bunch of you due to 50 games. I don’t see how that same fan can be patient to sit through more than 5 years of being the joke of the league.

This team was in their rebuild in 2013-2016 basically 4 seasons. They stripped it down in 13 and started to spend picks on older players in the summer of 16. In the 2018/19 season they had 5 picks in the top 6 of the draft in their tank years. Lindholm and Monahan from 13, Bennett from 14, Hanifin from 15 and Tkachuk from 16. If they tank for the next 5 years there is certainly no guarantee they get 5 better players than that group.

You’re correct that there’s no guarantee we’d end up better, but on the flip side if we don’t tank we’re stuck with the group we have now and we already know this current group doesn’t have what it takes to get things done. I’m not convinced a retool of the core will change much. The only way to try again is to sell and try again with a new group of picks until you find a group that works.

It sucks but that’s reality. Building a good hockey team isn’t overly complicated. It just requires a ton of luck.

[delayedreflex]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Tank. Could you imagine a team with Brandt Clarke and Shane Wright on it? That could be a real thing if we pull out the stops and tank

Could be a real thing being the operative term... being dead last in the league only gets you an 18.5% chance at the first overall pick. Being fifth worst in the league still only gets you a 17% chance at a top two pick. Tank as hard as you like, the odds are still against any given team getting a generational player. With the Flames' luck, they might tank their way to last place just to get 3rd overall, which might get you a good player but seems a lot less reliable than a top two pick (see 2nd overall vs. 3rd overall picks over the last 40 years).

The best way would be if you could somehow collect more lottery picks - but usually the only teams trading 1st rounders are the ones who are going to make the playoffs.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

The fanbase turned on Gaudreau just as fast and he's accomplished a lot more than Tkachuk. It seems like too many fans have Tkachuk on a pedestal but he's no more special than other players. Remember he's the one that wanted the bridge contract to get to free agency quicker. Hard to give a guy the captaincy when his main focus appears to be cashing in at free agency as soon as possible.

The Flames have been mediocre for decades and since Treliving has taken over have had one season where they were a comfortable playoff team. The rest of the time they have been a fringe team and getting worse year after year. I don't know about you but I would gladly take a few painful seasons of rebuild over the current painful seasons of mediocrity. Outside of Peters first season, the team hasn't been fun to watch in pretty well every season post-Hartley. I'm not sure why any fan would want to sign on for a continuation of what we have seen this season and make no mistake this team may not be rebuilding but they are no better than a rebuilding Ottawa team so if the team is going to be bad they may as well do things right.

I don’t agree this fanbase turned on Gaudreau more quickly than Tkachuk. The trade Johnny stuff started last season after the 99pt year and it is due to his play suffering and his contract.

I think you are more of an Eric Francis than an Erick Estrada with your Tkachuk contract take. Looking at that offseason those RFA’s signed 2 types of deals. Insane money and term or bridge with high QO. Marner, Rantanen, Aho were examples of guys that signed for 5+ years taking them to UFA at a price between 8.5-10.7M. The next group of guys like Tkachuk, Point, Boeser, Meier all took the short term bridge with high qualifying offer. All of this was before the flat cap with thoughts a new TV deal would push the cap even higher.

I don’t think there is a single Flames fan who wants to come back with the same group. I don’t think an organization is going to look at one bad year in a Covid season and decide they need to start all over again. I think some major changes are on the horizon but I just do not see the team coming out and sending a letter like the Hawks or Rangers to their fans saying they are rebuilding. Another year like this season and I think it does happen but they won’t go down that direction until they see how this team does when things are normal.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

The fanbase turned on Gaudreau just as fast and he's accomplished a lot more than Tkachuk. It seems like too many fans have Tkachuk on a pedestal but he's no more special than other players. Remember he's the one that wanted the bridge contract to get to free agency quicker. Hard to give a guy the captaincy when his main focus appears to be cashing in at free agency as soon as possible.

The Flames have been mediocre for decades and since Treliving has taken over have had one season where they were a comfortable playoff team. The rest of the time they have been a fringe team and getting worse year after year. I don't know about you but I would gladly take a few painful seasons of rebuild over the current painful seasons of mediocrity. Outside of Peters first season, the team hasn't been fun to watch in pretty well every season post-Hartley. I'm not sure why any fan would want to sign on for a continuation of what we have seen this season and make no mistake this team may not be rebuilding but they are no better than a rebuilding Ottawa team so if the team is going to be bad they may as well do things right.

This could well be true (and I tend to believe it is), but there is the possibility he would have been willing to sign a LT deal.

Flames were painted into a corner and had zero additional money with which to sign him to anything more than they did. That was the summer in which Treliving supposedly had a deal for Frolik in his hip pocket that he would able to cash in on at any time.

Turns out he didn't and Frolik wasn't dealt until later in the year.

Maybe Tkachuk would never have gone long term but seems the bridge deal was the only option Flames had.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by Steve Bozek

I like Matthew Tkachuk, and will always remember the time he fooled Sidney Crosby to set upan overtime winner, or the betwwen the leg shot for a big goal. And he seemed to be showing progression of his skills over his time on the team. But that contract, which might have looked good if his play had shown continued growth, now looks very similar to what the Lucic contract must have looked to the Soilers after year 2. The contract makes him almost untradable, and a buy-out really isn’t in the cards. Current level of play isn’t worth anywhere near the $7M required for the next year of service, and if that’s the new Matthew, then you have to bite the bullet and lose him as a free agent. The $9M needed to retain him beyond 1 year is far too steep a price to pay unless he miraculously turns into a scoring machine. I think the Flames are stuck with him and just have to hope that this season was an aberration.

I think that’s too harsh on Tkachuk’s value. Based on the large sample size we have, this is clearly his worst year. He still has a ton of value, and I would wager that many GMs would rather pay for Tkachuk’s services at 9m for a long period of time over Boeser or Meier. He brings more to the table, when you factor in things outside of scoring, namely agitating the opposition. He draws penalties like no other. Unfortunately, we’ve lost the locker room with him there. I don’t know what happened after the Muzzin scrum, but everyone with eyes can see that something leadership wise went down and Tkachuk hasn’t been the same. We don’t know who those players are, but signs point to Gio and maybe a couple of others.

If you want to retain Tkachuk, you’ve got to move the other ones that are against what he does. I don’t think he’s happy here anymore though, based on his lackluster play and also trading two of his very good friends in Rittich and Bennett.

If there was any time to sell him, then it has to be this offseason.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

It might be as good as a team with Pavel Brendl and Neil,Yakapov.

Or not.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Because our troop of Valimakis, Bennetts, Baertschis, and Monahans have been so good.

How else do you propose building a winner at this point? Hell, even a team as shameful as Edmonton who took 15 years to do it eventually did luck in to league breaking talent. Even if they'll still never win there, is that not something you desire?

We've been trying to win a cup over the last 15 years and we have pretty much nil to show for it. No additional playoff success compared to the ####in oilers who literally attempted to fail for like 7 straight years during that period.
They at least got superstars out of it. here we are with a troop of disgruntled degenerates and we'll very likely spring to another mediocre finish, and pick another middling player in the middle of the first round, as ####ing always.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by delayedreflex

Could be a real thing being the operative term... being dead last in the league only gets you an 18.5% chance at the first overall pick. Being fifth worst in the league still only gets you a 17% chance at a top two pick. Tank as hard as you like, the odds are still against any given team getting a generational player. With the Flames' luck, they might tank their way to last place just to get 3rd overall, which might get you a good player but seems a lot less reliable than a top two pick (see 2nd overall vs. 3rd overall picks over the last 40 years).

The best way would be if you could somehow collect more lottery picks - but usually the only teams trading 1st rounders are the ones who are going to make the playoffs.

Yeah but teams can have down years, injuries happen. The best way to achieve this is a la Ottawa- target an older winning team with one of our broken but very talented players, say Monahan or Gaudreau, and ask for the 1st in 2 years for it. Repeat. Then not only do you make our club weaker on ice and enhance our chance of landing real talent in the draft, but you also stock up on extra lottery tickets. If we're really lucky we can pittsburgh/chicago this rebuild. If we're not, then we might have to reload and try again a la colorado. But clearly what we've done for 20 years has not worked at all. It would be actually insane to continue doing the same thing over and over again.