2021 Off season: You're in charge, what would you do?

[blender]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

^ @blender
see I don’t think that it’s right to say the top level talent isn’t there

The team has to play with pace, and then on good teams, top talent is effective when they are the ones who are capable of making plays at a high pace. Somewhere along the way, and I think gradually over time, this team believed in their skill and slowly the pace moved downwards to the point where they are too easy to pressure.

I can’t think of a top team that is cerebral and effective without pace

There is talent for sure. We've all seen it. All I meant was that there could be more, not that the Flames are bereft of it altogether.

As an example, it would likely be safe to say that every team in Canada except Ottawa has better/more game-breakers than Calgary.

A major reason why I believe in re-signing Gaudreau.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Well Dubas got it done but that was a bad deal for the Leafs. Kerfoot is a mediocre player with a 3.5M cap hit and Barrie walked for nothing and the Leafs missed the playoffs last year. They were able to get their guy in Brodie at the end of the day.

Would you have been happier if Treliving pivoted from that deal and made a bad trade?

Well it is surprising he got nothing and Brodie walked... I think this time around Brad picked up on that we got a 3rd for David Rittich,

[Calgary4LIfe]

I do think that this team has talent to make noise. I have mentioned it before Darryl got hired in that this team plays slow - whether it was the system or not, they are purposely playing slower. We have essentially hired Eakins who had the Oilers playing and practicing slower too compared to Hartley's Flames during the same time frame.



Sutter will get this team playing the right way again. I think most of us have been noticing it improve, and Calgary still has players that fit Sutter's system here - no surprise to see Lindholm and Gaudreau performing better, as well as Backlund seems to be heavily relied-on by Sutter.



I still think Tkachuk gets moved as he is just not fitting in or producing. Monahan I am on the fence with if he is moved or not - Sutter seems to praise him a lot, and there are the rumours that he is playing through an injury too.



All I know is that there will be some movement in the off-season. I will be shocked it if is Linholm. I will be very surprised if it is Gaudreau. I am basing this just off of production on the team and how they actually look like.


Defencemen for me are a bit tougher to figure out. At this point, it will surprise me if Stone is not brought back - considering he lives here in the off-season and has remained here even after his buy-out makes me think that's a good situation for him, and under Sutter he has simply excelled. Andersson I kind of see as the odd-man out, but he is young. He just looks awful out there half the time.


This is all based on the assumption that Treliving and Sutter will discuss the roster together. Trading Bennett made me think that they don't, but I am assuming that Sutter knew in advance that Bennett was likely to be traded.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by DazzlinDino

Well it is surprising he got nothing and Brodie walked... I think this time around Brad picked up on that we got a 3rd for David Rittich,

I don’t think there were other deals. This was a really unusual one - expiring contract but a good player with two years on a good contract (plus other assets) in return? Usually you are taking picks and prospects for a pending UFA.

[Jore]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Absolutely it is poorly constructed, we agree.

But top players having what you refer to a ‘serious flaws’ shouldn’t be an issue. Many players have found success with particular strengths.

A guy like Dave Andreychuk, he is a hall of famer who may have never scored a pretty one. Went to the dirty areas and paid the price. I recall reading somewhere that he would purposely shoot at the goalie’s pad sometime to get a rebound to himself that was a better scoring chance.

If he was on the Flames, we’d probably complain about his foot speed or his back checking or find something. Most good teams are a collection of parts, not a collection of complete players


‘Up to potential’ starts with every player being a professional and putting in the effort. It is Matthew Tkachuk getting something closer to a point per game, certainly more than 3 assists in 10 games when the season is on the line. He has the talent, but rather appears to have checked out

Ok, I see what you mean. I agree, it’s why I think we’ll see guys revert somewhat to their career norms the rest of the year or, god forbid if nothing changes, next year and we’ll continue to vacillate between bubble team and a ~12th overall pick

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Jore

I think the team does not inspire with its play, but it's also just a shoddily constructed team with poor overall balance. Our best offensive player has serious flaws and our highest paid C does nothing a top C does. We fill the bottom of the roster with PTO-tier players every year (Nordstrom, Stone) and Ritchie, another PTO, has been one of our top RWs. What is "up to potential" for a team built like this?

^^This is why I am not sure what Treliving's plan is,

Maybe he banked on Johnny and Monahan to be the strength of the team for a longer period. Darryl has figured out that those 2 shouldn't be the on the top line because what they provide is somewhat limited. What's worse is that maintaining this structure at the top probably boxed Bennett out of the top 6 when in reality we should be building stronger top lines to stay competitive. If Monahan is injured as he was in the past, why do we keep playing him, are we putting his career at risk when we are barely accomplishing anything anyways?

Lindholm and Johnny seems promising but we don't have another elite winger so we improvise.. because we have nothing else.

Did we hang on to that top line too long, are we afraid to make the kind of trades that get us another elite center? I would swing for the fences give Buffalo some good players and start with Jack Eichel, Elias Lindholm Backlund down the middle... Start there and build on out!

Flames have to step up with a better plan take some risks make it work!

This situation reminds me of GG continually putting out the brouwerplay while it wasn't working. How many times do we keep hanging on to the ideas.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by DazzlinDino

^^This is why I am not sure what Treliving's plan is,

Maybe he banked on Johnny and Monahan to be the strength of the team for a longer period. Darryl has figured out that those 2 shouldn't be the on the top line because what they provide is somewhat limited. What's worse is that maintaining this structure at the top probably boxed Bennett out of the top 6 when in reality we should be building stronger top lines to stay competitive. If Monahan is injured as he was in the past, why do we keep playing him, are we putting his career at risk when we are barely accomplishing anything anyways?

Lindholm and Johnny seems promising but we don't have another elite winger so we improvise.. because we have nothing else.

Did we hang on to that top line too long, are we afraid to make the kind of trades that get us another elite center? I would swing for the fences give Buffalo some good players and start with Jack Eichel, Elias Lindholm Backlund down the middle... Start there and build on out!

Flames have to step up with a better plan take some risks make it work!

This situation reminds me of GG continually putting out the brouwerplay while it wasn't working. How many times do we keep hanging on to the ideas.

I think Treliving tried to build stronger lines. I think that was the whole Hamilton/Ferland for Lindholm/Hanifin trade. I think he intended to have Lindholm centering a strong line and Monahan doing the same, with combinations of Gaudreau and Tkachuk. The problem was, he brought in a RW for one of those lines that turned out to be terrible. That failure leads to a Lindholm at RW spell which turned out to be maybe too successful off the hop. Imagine if Neal scores 25 per year on Lindholm or Monahan’s RW. And now you have Mangiapane as RW on the other line. Then you have Backlund, Dube and Bennett. Then you have Ryan with whoever you can fit in - a Nordstrom or a Ritchie type. That team looks a lot better.

I love Lucic, but the Neal deal killed the build.

The alternative universe is Bennett working out, which means you still have Hamilton and no Lindholm or Hanifin, but the rest looks pretty similar. Except Bennett is one of the top 6 Cs, not Lindholm.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

I don’t really buy the argument that because one option was available that there were a long list of other trades that could have been made.


Treliving was on the cusp of fleecing Dubas (especially if the rumored Connor Brown piece was also in the deal) and when it fell through (because Calgary is a typical team listed on no trade lists) he certainly was not forced to pivot to a bad deal.

But he did pivot to a "bad deal" He lost two players for nothing at the end of the next season and did nothing to address his biggest need.

I don't believe there was no other option.

I'm not hanging BT over one deal, or non deal, though. I'm more than happy to look at the seven year body of work.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Jore

Ok, I see what you mean. I agree, it’s why I think we’ll see guys revert somewhat to their career norms the rest of the year or, god forbid if nothing changes, next year and we’ll continue to vacillate between bubble team and a ~12th overall pick

Seems entirely possible. Our GM doesn't strike me as overly nimble so if a big deal falls apart he may have a hard time reacting.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I think Treliving tried to build stronger lines. I think that was the whole Hamilton/Ferland for Lindholm/Hanifin trade. I think he intended to have Lindholm centering a strong line and Monahan doing the same, with combinations of Gaudreau and Tkachuk. The problem was, he brought in a RW for one of those lines that turned out to be terrible. That failure leads to a Lindholm at RW spell which turned out to be maybe too successful off the hop. Imagine if Neal scores 25 per year on Lindholm or Monahan’s RW. And now you have Mangiapane as RW on the other line. Then you have Backlund, Dube and Bennett. Then you have Ryan with whoever you can fit in - a Nordstrom or a Ritchie type. That team looks a lot better.

I love Lucic, but the Neal deal killed the build.

The alternative universe is Bennett working out, which means you still have Hamilton and no Lindholm or Hanifin, but the rest looks pretty similar. Except Bennett is one of the top 6 Cs, not Lindholm.

Good point about Neal! Unfortunate we couldn't sign Neal to a show me deal at the time as that might have saved a lot of pain. At the time I was hoping we would find room for a young guy to step up and many of us were on board with the idea of Neal bolstering the top 6. Both Neal and Brouwer are big misses that still affect this team.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Based on this and the arena negotiation thread, the right thing to do would be sell the team and pocket the millions in profits. I haven't seen the fanbase this negative toward the team since the Young Guns/Save Our Flames days.

[DeluxeMoustache]

That Neal contract was such a shame. Pretty bad indictment of pro scouting

And man, that guy has had a horseshoe up his ass, building a career off of time with some good centres, as a PP specialist. Especially in Pittsburgh. (After Modano in Dallas)

Even in Edmonton last year, when he got 19 goals, 12 were on the PP, and they tried to see what else he brought, and even they are sick of his crap

Michael Ferland on his off wing got, what, 21 goals and 41 points? Didn’t have to pay 5.75 or whatever it was for a long term for that. That’s what a middle six winger *should* get if he’s gifted a spot on a top line

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

That Neal contract was such a shame. Pretty bad indictment of pro scouting

And man, that guy has had a horseshoe up his ass, building a career off of time with some good centres, as a PP specialist. Especially in Pittsburgh. (After Modano in Dallas)

Even in Edmonton last year, when he got 19 goals, 12 were on the PP, and they tried to see what else he brought, and even they are sick of his crap

Michael Ferland on his off wing got, what, 21 goals and 41 points? Didn’t have to pay 5.75 or whatever it was for a long term for that. That’s what a middle six winger *should* get if he’s gifted a spot on a top line

Definitely. This was Treliving’s biggest avoidable mistake. The things that made Neal suck here were known. It was like the pro scouts looked at goals and points and nothing else. Maybe height.

[DeluxeMoustache]

^ or teeth. But they were fake!

[Glassplat]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

- Move Johnny for the best return you can get
- Monahan is tricky. Is his decline due to an injury and therefore can be corrected? If so you are trading him at his lowest. If the decline is just organic, then look to move him too
- Float Tkachuk out there to see what you can get for him. He is the most valuable asset still this organization has - so it only makes sense to trade him if the value is there
- Protect Backlund and Gio in the draft. The latter will have high value next TDL on an expiring contract (perhaps as much as a 1st).

Agree with everything except the last bullet.....

[InternationalVillager]

1. Trade Monahan, Gaudreau, Tkachuk, Backlund, Giordano
2. Retain salaries over next 2-3 years in order to get the deals done
3. Acquire draft picks over 2022 - 2024
4. Build around Lindholm, Hanifin, Markstrom and Pelletier, Zary.
5. Pray for lottery balls to hit it right over the next few years.
6. Don't stop rebuilding until you have elite pieces at key positions which can compete with the rest of the league.

There is no other way to build a team these days. It's pretty much true across all sports (to a certain degree). You have to be able to sacrifice the short-term. You won't even realize when 3-5 years have flown by.

Even tanking - if you really want to call it that - has to be done with extreme intelligence and with a clear plan otherwise you'll follow the way of organizations like Buffalo Sabres and Cleveland Browns (or up north).

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

But he did pivot to a "bad deal" He lost two players for nothing at the end of the next season and did nothing to address his biggest need.

I don't believe there was no other option.

I'm not hanging BT over one deal, or non deal, though. I'm more than happy to look at the seven year body of work.

I am sure there were other options. I am sure the flames could be stuck with a Kerfoot like contract on the books instead of using the Brodie cap space on Tanev. The Flames lost a top pair D and replaced him with one who is the same age and 500k cheaper.

Losing Jankowski for nothing is a problem for you? The guy is out of the league next year.

[Freddy]

Burn the whole team down to build it back up with a forward core of Dube, Mangiapane, Pelletier, Zary, Phillips, Petterson, and Francis. Become the hardest working, tenacious, and fast top 9 in the league. Look at Garlandfor the Coyotes, Point in Tampa & Gallagher in Montreal, small guys can be beasts in this league.

Andersson and Valimaki on D.

Forget making size the priority, I think mean and fast should be the identity. I’m not sure Poposil for the Heat will ever make it, but I like that guys intangibles. Look at how much the Panthers are loving Lomberg this season, nobody here in Calgary thought he had a future on the big team here.

The game is evolving and small, fast, tenacious, hardy wingers will be the prototypical elite players in the future and Calgary has a nice pool of them already.

[Monahammer]

Tank. Could you imagine a team with Brandt Clarke and Shane Wright on it? That could be a real thing if we pull out the stops and tank

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by New Era

Based on this and the arena negotiation thread, the right thing to do would be sell the team and pocket the millions in profits. I haven't seen the fanbase this negative toward the team since the Young Guns/Save Our Flames days.

Its weird. I'm even actively cheering against the team on the Bennett trade front. Like, I want Bennett to embarrass the organization. That's a low point.