Brad Treliving needs to go

[1_Flames_Fan]

Hire Futa.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by SportsJunky

Yeah, he said it like it was a well known fact. I'd have to listen to it again but he said it like everyone on the show knew about it.

I don't know if Rhett has legit inside info - it has never seemed that way. and I've never heard a Monahan-Buffalo rumour (as opposed to the Anderson one).

I'm not even sure what it would have looked like. They weren't trading Eichel or Hall. Maybe Reinhart, though that doesn't feel right either (though it might have been a good move).

Perhaps they tried to offload Skinner, in which case, phew.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Pretty leaky for a GM who supposedly holds his cards close

That’s gotta be good for morale

Rumors don't always originate from the front office.
Often they are leaked by agents.

[ResAlien]

Wasnt it a rumoured Monahan/Risto deal?

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

But you have a career. This Flames stuff is a hobby for you. It's Brad's lone job to get this right. If a guy serving coffee at Tim Hortons is in the same camp as you in regards to the incorrect decisions you made at your work is that not a sign to your employer that they can do better? Brad's getting paid to make more astute decisions than fans. If we fans accept mediocrity then we are getting what we deserve here.

I just don't remember a lot of pretty educated hockey fans on this site suggesting that Gaudreau and Monahan had hit a ceiling at the all star break in 2019, and that they'd start declining from that point on.

So to suggest a guy that also didn't see that should be fired is a reach in my mind.

Those two at 85% of that season and this isn't a conversation.

[Toonage]

Was that the rumored Monahan for Risto deal? Thats scary on a few levels as Burke said on a number of occasions that they looked at getting him but were steered away by Chris Snow.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I just don't remember a lot of pretty educated hockey fans on this site suggesting that Gaudreau and Monahan had hit a ceiling at the all star break in 2019, and that they'd start declining from that point on.

Maybe not in that verbiage. But it was obvious that the team needed to try different things other than keeping those two glued at the hip

https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthread.php?t=173212

Now is that the fault of the coaches and not the manager?

Probably.

But it's nonetheless crazy that Treliving doubled down on a coach like Ward.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Maybe not in that verbiage. But it was obvious that the team needed to try different things other than keeping those two glued at the hip

https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthread.php?t=173212

Now is that the fault of the coaches and not the manager?

Probably.

But it's nonetheless crazy that Treliving doubled down on a coach like Ward.

Honestly I think you just helped me prove my point.

Topic about breaking up the top line, and four pages of skimming and there isn't a single call to trade either player.

New line combinations
Move Monahan to the wing
Monahan could be hurt

But nobody saying trade these two right now before they lose their value.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Honestly I think you just helped me prove my point.

Topic about breaking up the top line, and four pages of skimming and there isn't a single call to trade either player.

New line combinations
Move Monahan to the wing
Monahan could be hurt

But nobody saying trade these two right now before they lose their value.

And unless people were suggesting blowing it up and tanking after the most successful regular season in recent history, I see no point in trading those guys at that time. You aren't trading them for the better players Calgary needed either then or now. Calgary either needed an elite right wing to play with those guys (or maybe in a new line combo along with the other two guys), or an elite centre to allow that line to get some shelter. Trade those two and (a) you don't get one of those and (b) now you don't have those guys for the new guy to play with.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Honestly I think you just helped me prove my point.

Topic about breaking up the top line, and four pages of skimming and there isn't a single call to trade either player.

New line combinations
Move Monahan to the wing
Monahan could be hurt

But nobody saying trade these two right now before they lose their value.

Well, your point, specifically was that

"I just don't agree with the last paragraph, as I would have assumed Sean Monahan and Johnny Gaudreau were 2/3 of a first line that you could build around."

My counter to that, is that I don't think Monahan specifically is or was ever 1/3 of a first line you could build around. The first line was obviously reeling almost two years ago, and organizationally we've continued to keep Monahan there despite all the signs that he's simply not dynamic enough for that role.

When a guy like Pierre Luc Dubois was on the market, we should have been shopping Monahan hard. Maybe we did, but I've heard no rumours to support that.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

The bottom half of the roster rarely wins or loses games.
The league is now about your best players and if they are better on any given night than the other team's best players.
They get the most ice-time. They make the impact.

I don’t disagree that stars often win or lose you games. But the average first line star forward in this league cannot do it themselves every night. They need help and that’s why deep teams generally have the most success, because they slot well.

I mean, the average star first liner for any given franchise will score in what, roughly 40ish games in a full 82 game season? Now, other teams are obviously better off then others, the top elite superstars probably produce in 60ish games give or take, 50ishgames for your high end first liners, 30ish games for the bad teams, but in general, 40ish games is probably the average.

So if the average first liner is only scoring in roughly half the games they play and get shut out in the rest, then production has to come from elsewhere right? So that’s when your depth becomes a factor in the form of your team’s second line, bottom 6, defensemen and etc. So, ultimately, they still play a huge part in determining wins and losses. I mean, if you’re not getting help elsewhere, then you become like the Oilers who generally cannot win a game unless their generational talents produce points.


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[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Bingo

If that's the way it played out, I'd agree.

I for one, think that he looked hard at moving one or both of those players, and just couldn't find the value that he felt he needed to get it done.

I agree with you 100% I think he did look hard to trade them but didn’t find a deal he liked but I suspect those offers are not on the table anymore or the returns are even worse. Basically I think Treliving tried to move one or either player and when he didn’t like the returns he opted to go back to the same group again hoping an improved goalie and a new season would result in big bounce back years. Unfortunately that didn’t happen and not moving one or both of those players looks pretty bad on Treliving now especially since so many fans/media thought they would move on from at least one of them after losing in the bubble.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

At the very least, I would bet on it being another rookie GM. With the exception of Feaster, who was out of the league for a while, and Burke who was only the interim GM, it seems to be the way. I actually don't know if that is normal or not. It seems like very few GMs get recycled as compared to coaches.

I suggested Marc Hunter. He served as president and GM of the London Knights for 12 years, then as Director of Player Personnel/AGM on the Leafs for about 4 years. He apparently opted to leave after he was passed over for Dubas for the GM position and was in the running for the Seattle job. I know it's not an exciting hire, but it seems like a Flames kind of hire.

Hunter’s name has been bandied around for GM positions, but apparently he doesn’t want to leave southern Ontario.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

I don’t disagree that stars often win or lose you games. But the average first line star forward in this league cannot do it themselves every night. They need help and that’s why deep teams generally have the most success, because they slot well.

I mean, the average star first liner for any given franchise will score in what, roughly 40ish games in a full 82 game season? Now, other teams are obviously better off then others, the top elite superstars probably produce in 60ish games give or take, 50ishgames for your high end first liners, 30ish games for the bad teams, but in general, 40ish games is probably the average.

So if the average first liner is only scoring in roughly half the games they play and get shut out in the rest, then production has to come from elsewhere right? So that’s when your depth becomes a factor in the form of your team’s second line, bottom 6, defensemen and etc. So, ultimately, they still play a huge part in determining wins and losses. I mean, if you’re not getting help elsewhere, then you become like the Oilers who generally cannot win a game unless their generational talents produce points.


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Could check production based on top six ice time vs wins.

Do a proper Bayesian analysis to get probability of top six production turning into wins.

Could do same with bottom six.

Always thought though that d-men production could skewer that.

[EVERLAST]

Please GOD no.!!!! To Mark Hunter.

He's got a pretty pizz poor reputation with players and this won't be common knowledge or.spoken of because the same A hole on the ice is that same guy apparently off.the ice.
He'd have been snapped up real quick and be in NHL management if this weren't true.
I've heard this from very reliable sources close to the Flames.
Hard pass on Mark Hunter.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

I don’t disagree that stars often win or lose you games. But the average first line star forward in this league cannot do it themselves every night. They need help and that’s why deep teams generally have the most success, because they slot well.

I mean, the average star first liner for any given franchise will score in what, roughly 40ish games in a full 82 game season? Now, other teams are obviously better off then others, the top elite superstars probably produce in 60ish games give or take, 50ishgames for your high end first liners, 30ish games for the bad teams, but in general, 40ish games is probably the average.

So if the average first liner is only scoring in roughly half the games they play and get shut out in the rest, then production has to come from elsewhere right? So that’s when your depth becomes a factor in the form of your team’s second line, bottom 6, defensemen and etc. So, ultimately, they still play a huge part in determining wins and losses. I mean, if you’re not getting help elsewhere, then you become like the Oilers who generally cannot win a game unless their generational talents produce points.


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It's not just about scoring - but I get your point.
But I would counter that if your top line player are getting outplayed more often than not - then you are already behind.
If anything the Oilers are proof of this. They can win games by having the two best players on the ice most nights. Can they win a championship? Remains to be seen. But they enjoy that advantage every night.

Calgary is at a disadvantage most nights because their top players are inferior.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Well, your point, specifically was that

"I just don't agree with the last paragraph, as I would have assumed Sean Monahan and Johnny Gaudreau were 2/3 of a first line that you could build around."

My counter to that, is that I don't think Monahan specifically is or was ever 1/3 of a first line you could build around. The first line was obviously reeling almost two years ago, and organizationally we've continued to keep Monahan there despite all the signs that he's simply not dynamic enough for that role.

When a guy like Pierre Luc Dubois was on the market, we should have been shopping Monahan hard. Maybe we did, but I've heard no rumours to support that.

Right but I didn't see the bolded said in that topic either.

It was all about mixing up the lines to find a non stale option and the fact that Monahan was possibly hurt.

I can look again, but I didn't see anything about Monahan being a pretender or fraud and they had better give up on him as a first line option.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by 1_Flames_Fan

Hire Futa.

Among the worst suggestions yet. A guy who was a high end AGM forever and was the next up and coming GM eventually gets let go by his team that many thought were keeping him and grooming him. To me this is Fenton 2.0

There is a reason Futa is working in the media

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Well, your point, specifically was that

"I just don't agree with the last paragraph, as I would have assumed Sean Monahan and Johnny Gaudreau were 2/3 of a first line that you could build around."

My counter to that, is that I don't think Monahan specifically is or was ever 1/3 of a first line you could build around. The first line was obviously reeling almost two years ago, and organizationally we've continued to keep Monahan there despite all the signs that he's simply not dynamic enough for that role.

When a guy like Pierre Luc Dubois was on the market, we should have been shopping Monahan hard. Maybe we did, but I've heard no rumours to support that.

When Monahan scored 31 as a 20 year old sophomore who with Gaudreau and Hudler were the key to getting this team to the playoffs in 2015 you didn’t think he had 1st line potential?

When he was pacing for over 100pts more than halfway through the 18/19 season you never thought he could be a top 3 forward on the team?

Everything I heard about Dubois with the Flames was that either Monahan or Gaudreau were on the table but the Jackets were only interested in Tkachuk. Lebrun specifically stated that Monahan was being shopped in the Dubois deal

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Rumors don't always originate from the front office.
Often they are leaked by agents.

Often? Let’s go with that

If it was last year as was suggested, there wouldn’t have been a NTC consideration, so are you suggesting some Buffalo player’s agent

Not a lot of NTCs over there. Which garbage player / contract was it for?

Okposo or Skinner?

This isn’t a good look on Tre no matter how this rumour came out.

Shouldn’t have been from his side, and if it was from the other side, the only agents needing awareness are those with hideous contracts

Wizardry at work