Arena Negotiation Discussion v2

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

People shouldn't jump to conclusions until something is announced.

No, I'm going to start jumping now...

https://twitter.com/meksmith/status/...780353026?s=01

#yyccc has just come out from several hours of a closed session meeting. On an in camera "capital projects" item, they're looking at recommendations to, surprise, keep everything secret.#yyccc has just come out from several hours of a closed session meeting. On an in camera "capital projects" item, they're looking at recommendations to, surprise, keep everything secret.

... no way is that just a coincidence.

[cam_wmh]

Here's how they voted to keep the "item secret"



Some definite strategic voting going on. Recall who voted against the arena, and just today voted against keeping the "Capital Projects Update", secret.

Originally Posted by Farkas;

this is by far the most stunning thing I've seen during my time in office

Hold onto your butts.

[Mr.Coffee]

What does any of the last 3 pages mean, specifically? Can anyone translate for the layman? So weird.

Secret votes and bad news and wtf is this? What are we even talking about. Where’s that Jim Carrey gif when you need it.

If you’re going to post news or say hold onto your butts explain yourself. Why hang onto our butts? What does arena vote and check marks mean?

[agulati]

Originally Posted by BMStrikesAgain

montreal forum, joe louis arena, boston garden, Madison square gardens, Maple leaf gardens, the garden in my backyard. those are iconic arenas, the saddledome is not.

As someone who grew up in a place where no one knew a thing about hockey, I knew of the Saddledome ever since I was a little child. I didn’t even know that city of Calgary existed at that time. I remember my encyclopedia (child craft) had a picture of the dome (along with Times Square, and other iconic locations) to represent North America.

Imagine my surprise when I moved to Calgary to see an ICONIC building to represent my city and the team that I have grown to love.

The Saddledome is definitely iconic

[cam_wmh]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

What does any of the last 3 pages mean, specifically? Can anyone translate for the layman? So weird.

Secret votes and bad news and wtf is this? What are we even talking about. Where’s that Jim Carrey gif when you need it.

If you’re going to post news or say hold onto your butts explain yourself. Why hang onto our butts? What does arena vote and check marks mean?

Since you were so polite, for being so slow to the take, I'll cater to you/LCD.

Click this tweet, and read the thread, with critical thought. (it's what was posted by Parallex)

https://twitter.com/user/status/1382139701780353026

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

What does any of the last 3 pages mean, specifically? Can anyone translate for the layman? So weird.

Secret votes and bad news and wtf is this? What are we even talking about. Where’s that Jim Carrey gif when you need it.

If you’re going to post news or say hold onto your butts explain yourself. Why hang onto our butts? What does arena vote and check marks mean?

Rumour I’ve read is that it’s going to be way over budget (due to a lot of the factors mentioned in this thread). Not enough to cancel the project or delay it, but a notable amount already.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Rumour I’ve read is that it’s going to be way over budget (due to a lot of the factors mentioned in this thread). Not enough to cancel the project or delay it, but a notable amount already.

How often does a sporting arena come in on budget? Serious question.

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

How often does a sporting arena come in on budget? Serious question.

That’s how you get a boring arena like in Edmonton. I assume the same will happen here. All the good things get taken out due to budget.

[Erick Estrada]

A delay would not be surprising given the events of the past year.

[kermitology]

Good. This arena should be canceled from Calgary capital projects. Make the owners pay for it.

*Cue everyone freaking out
** fast forward to 2 years from now when everyone complains about their taxes going up

[Mull]

Originally Posted by kermitology

Good. This arena should be canceled from Calgary capital projects. Make the owners pay for it.

*Cue everyone freaking out
** fast forward to 2 years from now when everyone complains about their taxes going up

I am pretty anti-arena with pubic funds camp. That said, even I agreed the fight was lost so was cheering for the arena do succeed with all the things it promised, to look pretty, bring investment that doesn't simply leech other investment from other areas and provide a venue that is missing now in the City.

However, if the deal falls apart, unless there are large closing cost for the City, I won't shed a tear.

It's too bad the City in their infinite wisdom has decided to keep this all confidential. We have no idea what capital grants they are speaking to when they claim this money can't be used for operational cost items.

I really hope 5 years from now they are forced to release the documents when the competitive advantage excuse shouldn't be relevant. Would be good to learn how justified the confidential argument was today and last year.

[Joborule]

I do understand the ciritism's of cities funding arenas/stadiums, and not really arguing against it, but once it's built and established in the community, do people really bitch about it anymore?

How do Edmontonians feels bout the Rodgers Centre several years after construction? Are a fair amount upset about paying so much for it in the end? Any other North Amercian cities that have had recent venues completed with lots of public funding backlash? How about Montreal's Olympic Stadium? The best example of a project that's a financial white elephant. Are citizen's in that city more prideful of the venue, or have more remorse over the cost?

Like any civil project, I feel that during the funding, construction, and initial post construction phase, the costs can be a big controversy if the price tag sticks out. But the following year after it's not thought of at all anymore, and the project itself is a fabric of the community and viewed as a positive asset. One recent example of this I feel is the peace bridge where lots of people balked at the price, but it's a internationally recognized featured in our city.

I'm not saying that this should excuse cities pay much more for projects than they should be when the argument of who's benefiting more could be skewed more to the third party, but if it comes down to having no arena, continue skipping of major concerts/events, and thus no team at all, versus a new arena that brings it more events, and renewed commitment of professional sport team staying, then the cost in the long run really won't be a concern at all.

I mean, how many of us knows how much the Saddledome cost? And was it worth it?

[Zarley]

Not surprising that it's overbudget. The budget was extremely tight to begin with for what they wanted to accomplish. Since then lumber prices have skyrocketed, steel has gone crazy, and even plastics pricing has seen extreme volatility due to the situation we are seeing with global shipping. It might make sense to delay construction for a year or so until these markets normalize.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by kermitology

Good. This arena should be canceled from Calgary capital projects. Make the owners pay for it.

*Cue everyone freaking out
** fast forward to 2 years from now when everyone complains about their taxes going up

Yes, the team owners should pay for a new arena - unfortunately it's cheaper for them to move the team to one of many other markets with an arena in place - Quebec City, Houston (top ten US TV market), Portland, Kansas City, (IIRC, Seattle was an option before expansion), even San Antonio (build up that Texas rivalry).

This is the cost of doing business - everyone wants something paid for with other people's money.

[Beatle17]

According to Trading Economics this morning, steel prices have dropped 5% today. By the end of the quarter they are expected to drop up to 25%, so the prices at that point will be the same as they were in early 2018. The thing with steel is how busy industry is and the mills get competitive.

quote from Trading Economics forecast section:
Steel is expected to trade at 4754.05 Yuan/MT by the end of this quarter, according to Trading Economics global macro models and analysts expectations. Looking forward, we estimate it to trade at 3887.23 in 12 months time.

Further, IF the City of Calgary tries to back out of the deal no other company will ever commit to a deal. The negotiation happened and unless they are willing to pay huge money to break the deal it will proceed.

[Jordan!]

Does anyone know if The Flames can/will add gambling/casino in the new arena complex?

Arizona is passing a law that allows Team owners in AZ to have gambling on site at their arenas. This is going to be huge for the Coyotes owners who already run casinos in Reno/Vegas

[Mull]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Yes, the team owners should pay for a new arena - unfortunately it's cheaper for them to move the team to one of many other markets with an arena in place - Quebec City, Houston (top ten US TV market), Portland, Kansas City, (IIRC, Seattle was an option before expansion), even San Antonio (build up that Texas rivalry).

This is the cost of doing business - everyone wants something paid for with other people's money.

Moving the team is such a laughable threat. Both because of the feasibility of it and because of double standard the Flames business would be requiring to stay operational compared to other business.

You want to have a fair discussion? Talk about how the flames are simply fine with not funding a new arena if no public money exists, and therefore all the positives the Flames claim the City gets with a new arena are lost.

To be a little blunt - the minute you talk about moving the team in the current era of the NHL, any person you're trying to engage who may be not necessary pro-arena, roll's their eyes and disregards anything you say.

[memphusk]

Is this world steel prices? The cost of materiel in general is out of control in this country, and my steel costs aren't going down, with a price increase coming this summer.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

How often does a sporting arena come in on budget? Serious question.

I imagine it has to be incredibly rare, but I think the difference here is it's going over the original budget before groundbreaking due to material costs, and will likely go even higher over the course of construction.

People are talking about cancelling the project or delaying it by a year, I don't see that happening. I think they want to push ahead and get it started. Ideally to a point where a very different-looking council can't realistically crush the project.

[The Yen Man]

The reality of it is this. Calgary's a small market city with 1.2M people. No team owner is going to be willing to privately 100% fund an arena because the economics of it doesn't work with a city so small. We aren't New York or LA, where their arenas are constantly overbooked due to all the different events that occur throughout the year.

Come summer time, the arena pretty much sits empty most of the time. Now, you can argue that's the price owners pay to have a hockey team in a city like Calgary. But the alternative (other than moving the team) is they just keep playing out of the oldest building in the league, and owners eventually stop spending money on the team other than bare minimum to stay competitive (see Ottawa). We lose all our good players to UFA, and we'll probably have even less draw for mid tier UFAs because of outdated facility. Eventually (if we aren't there already), we get the McMahon stadium equivalent of hockey arenas.