Arena Negotiation Discussion v2

[Mull]

Here we go again.

The flames threat for leaving doesn't have enough substance.

If there is no public money for an arena, they will stay for the foreseeable future, just not invest in a new facility.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

No way, surely Bettman will go begging to the city like he did in Pittsburgh or just have the NHL buy the team like he did in Phoenix. Right?

Bettman has already done this in Calgary.

Contrary to your sarcastic insinuations, Bettman has actually been instrumental in ensuring the long-term viability of all the Canadian franchises.

[Canadianman]

I realize I'm in a minority on a Flames message board, but I hope it is cancelled.


Absolutely NO public money should go towards professional sports teams. There is no reason why millionaire players and billionaire owners should be subsidized by people who can't even afford to go to a game.


They can build their own arena. If they can't make it work with their current financial structure, then the structure needs to change. Maybe players shouldn't make millions for playing a game.



If a mayoral candidate ran on the platform of no longer subsidizing the Flames, I'd be very likely to vote for them purely based on that.

[nik-]

Threat to leave isn't exactly a big one right now.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

It might be worth waiting to be sure that mass gatherings will be possible sometime this decade before breaking ground.

It seems possible that we may be in for several years of mutations that make it tough to get COVID sufficiently under control. We'll hopefully get closer to life as usual, but packing stadiums may not prudent for some time to come...

Well if that's the case the league is done... people will be packing stadiums within the next year, a decade? Let's not build a stadium incase a meteor strikes the earth because then it would be a waste. Frig the thing could have been half built already, it's getting more expensive because of feet dragging... building costs go up not down.

[Erick Estrada]

People shouldn't jump to conclusions until something is announced.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Canadianman

I realize I'm in a minority on a Flames message board, but I hope it is cancelled.


Absolutely NO public money should go towards professional sports teams. There is no reason why millionaire players and billionaire owners should be subsidized by people who can't even afford to go to a game.


They can build their own arena. If they can't make it work with their current financial structure, then the structure needs to change. Maybe players shouldn't make millions for playing a game.



If a mayoral candidate ran on the platform of no longer subsidizing the Flames, I'd be very likely to vote for them purely based on that.

Never build anything again in that case. What gets used by 100% of the population? And going back on a deal would be a terrible look for the city.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Materials costs are way up for reasons that are temporary, but until they come down just building it now to "stick to the deal" is political suicide (right before an election no less, making it even more suicidal). If there is a "bad news" announcement I would imagine a delay is coming.

[getbak]

There's already a pretty big cushion built into the schedule as announced, with construction slated to take a full 3 years (groundbreaking this summer/fall with opening in 2024).

Most of the recent new arena constructions have only been about 2 years long. The Islanders' new arena had its groundbreaking in September 2019, and it's on schedule to open this fall. Even the arena in Seattle, with all of its complications, isn't going to take a full 3 years to build. Rogers Place had its groundbreaking in the spring of 2014 and opened in the fall of 2016.


The groundbreaking on the new arena could potentially be pushed back 6 months to next spring and it might not even impact the fall 2024 opening date.

[btimbit]

I seriously doubt it would be canceled.

Delayed start to next year maybe, but shutting the whole project down at this stage would be massive.

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by Canadianman

I realize I'm in a minority on a Flames message board, but I hope it is cancelled.


Absolutely NO public money should go towards professional sports teams. There is no reason why millionaire players and billionaire owners should be subsidized by people who can't even afford to go to a game.


They can build their own arena. If they can't make it work with their current financial structure, then the structure needs to change. Maybe players shouldn't make millions for playing a game.



If a mayoral candidate ran on the platform of no longer subsidizing the Flames, I'd be very likely to vote for them purely based on that.

This is late stage capitalism at work. Socialism for the wealthy elite, bootstrap pulling for the rest of us.

[JBR]

I’ve never understood why “millionaire players” are mentioned in the same breathe as “billionaire owners” in these discussions. Are employees responsible for funding the cost of their workplace? Am I going to get an invoice for my office and desk at work?

Sure the players are getting paid more than I am, but the product they provide is different than the one my company offers.

[Flamenspiel]

I think the provincial government should pay for it, no Calgary money, specifically everyone in Edmonton should pay. If the NDP wants my vote, that’s what it would take.

[The Boy Wonder]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

This is late stage capitalism at work. Socialism for the wealthy elite, bootstrap pulling for the rest of us.

You are certainly living up to your username...

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by Mull

I am not an expert in this, but if the City pulled out of the agreement due to an upcoming election after negotiating and and I am assuming incurring design costs, who the heck would ever enter into another massive project agreement with them?

Delays sure, but I can't see the City coming out and saying the project is cancelled until the new council has had a chance to vote, seems bad faith and incompetent.

Would it necessarily be the city pulling the plug? Could it not be the Flames?

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by edslunch

Would it necessarily be the city pulling the plug? Could it not be the Flames?

Without approval from the League to move the team to another city? The NHL has already intervened on the part of the owners to get this deal signed in the first place. Their priority is to have the Flames remain in Calgary. I can't see how they would simply let the owners pull out.

[Mull]

Originally Posted by edslunch

Would it necessarily be the city pulling the plug? Could it not be the Flames?

I guess its in the realm of possibility. As little as I think of our ownership group, I guess I didn't think that little of them to consider it.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Well if that's the case the league is done... people will be packing stadiums within the next year, a decade? Let's not build a stadium incase a meteor strikes the earth because then it would be a waste. Frig the thing could have been half built already, it's getting more expensive because of feet dragging... building costs go up not down.

The whole premise of a new arena is to exploit derive more revenue from a situation where supply > demand, especially by increasing their supply of suites to capitalize on surplus demand.

The improved experience of a new building also help to justify price increases, and there are likely efficiencies to help reduce expenses.

However, the market bears what the market bears. We may now be in a situation where they'd be unable to sellout the Saddledome suites and/or seats at existing prices.

Originally Posted by JBR

I’ve never understood why “millionaire players” are mentioned in the same breathe as “billionaire owners” in these discussions. Are employees responsible for funding the cost of their workplace? Am I going to get an invoice for my office and desk at work?

Sure the players are getting paid more than I am, but the product they provide is different than the one my company offers.

The business being able to actually sustain itself would influence CBA negotiations. If the teams had to actually save and plan for their own capital upgrades, you can bet they'd squeeze half of it out of the players. Of course, the real answer is that they'd also just build new arenas half as often.

[flambers]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

Construction costs have gone sky high. I would not be surprised if it’s now considerably more expensive to built. I really don’t get where the money’s coming from on this one, both from the Flames and the city. The Flames revenue has got to be well below zero, maybe losses of 50-100 million dollars.

Why would a cancellation be surprising? Is it even remotely responsible for a broke city and team to afford such a luxury?

Although it could be a major announcement that they will remove the toilets, like the Oilers did.

Not sure where you have received the info that construction costs have gone sky high?

Remember the general contractor is already hired etc.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by flambers

Not sure where you have received the info that construction costs have gone sky high?

Remember the general contractor is already hired etc.

The GC is probably on a cost plus basis, and the costs are fluid.