Brad Treliving needs to go

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

Time has run out on this group. Not "some time" this offseason - now. You'll get more competitive offers this deadline.

Basically get off your ass and field the offers and make some decisions Brad. He's been too inactive for too long with this core. Tinkering on the fringes did very little, its time for some major organ transplants.

I think they can get more value after the expansion draft unless a team thinks Monahan, Gaudreau, or Gio will push them over the edge.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

As someone that was expecting the core shake up last offseason, it feels really overdue now and with the season looking lost I'm really impatient about the needed changes that have to happen. With each day that gets struck off of Gaudreau's remaining contract, it becomes less valuable. I think you need to go for a haul for him at this deadline if you don't have certainty of your chances to re-sign him.

I appreciate the addressing of the coaching need and it was a good move but its time..... I dont have interest in this core remaining as it is to close out the year. Let Sutter work with the new guys coming in and get geared up for next year.

Time has run out on this group. Not "some time" this offseason - now. You'll get more competitive offers this deadline.

Basically get off your ass and field the offers and make some decisions Brad. He's been too inactive for too long with this core. Tinkering on the fringes did very little, its time for some major organ transplants.

I completely disagree.

The team will get different types of offers for their core players at the TD than they will in the offseason, but these will all be of the variety that are based on combinations of draft picks, prospects, and salary dumps. Acquiring teams will be neither interested nor able to provide returns which include equivalent NHL players. Rather, the type of return the Flames will want out of their core players is much more readily available in the offseason.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

The problem with this thinking is that even if they dr idea to move on from Monahan and/or Gaudreau at the 2020 TD the only deals they would have been entertaining would have been for packages of picks and prospects. It is usually far too difficult to make hockey trades at this time of tbe year, and there is no way the Flames were making a deal for these ayers that did not include impact players in the same age-window coming back.

I just don't believe a TD move to reshape the forward core would ever have realistically been possible.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

Wouldn't have had to be right at the TDL, but by time Jan 2020 it was pretty clear that the '18-19 run was the exception, not the rule. I was specific to Johnny as the guy to change for multiple reasons.

The point I made is what if a player (say Johnny) gets injured for the rest of the season? Does the team fold the tent and go home? Or would they still have a fighting chance?

A Konecny deal was probably already impossible by that point, but I could have seen something with BOS (who spent big to get offence from Kase). Something like Debrusk+Backes+1st+prospect(s)/pick(s) for Johnny. No doubt DeBrusk is a major downgrade and has regressed this year, but it would have turned a new page for this group. Ultimately it would probably fail, but IMO we would have had better odds of becoming a sustainable contender than we did by keeping the course.

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I am unsure of how to assess the Hiller signing. It was only two years, he was 32-years-old at the start of the contract, and had solid numbers in his last two years in Anaheim. He provided as much as what could have been expected his first year, and then fell off the map in year-two.

I don't know if it was a good signing, but it most definitely was not a bad one. Was it an impactful signing?

Signing a goalie on the wrong side of 30 was a helluva lot better than trading assets for one (twice).

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I thought so too. No one is really coming forward with ar argument that he has done a good job. But there are arguments that it's not his fault, inherited a disaster or needs one last kick at the can to prove he can get it done.

For me it's simply a matter of him being best positioned to navigate this TDL and off-season. A third of the way through next season we'll have a better idea of whether a re-tool is feasible or not.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

They are already horrible.

Let's not kid ourselves, we're 8th worst. What the hell would they be afraid of?

Also, well managed teams don't have to be horrible for 5 years. Keep certain pieces, sell others. Draft high this year.

Like - if we're talking about trading Gaudreau and Giordano it's not going to crater this team. If we're talking about adding Monahan in there, it's also not cratering this team. They aren't team-making pieces, in fact one could make a good argument that the cap we spend on those players being freed up, mixed with the assets we'd return would make us a better team IF the cap-space is used properly.

Might not crater the team, but considering they’re already just a bubble playoff team, taking away the team’s leading goal scorer and most dynamic scorer could hurt an already goal challenged team’s ability to score goals. He doesn’t just help contribute to scoring on the ice, but he also draws a ton of powerplays that this team would miss.

Also, I’m not convinced Mark Giordano would be moved under Sutter’s watch. Just a few days ago he called Gio his best even strength defenseman. He’s also on the top powerplay unit right now as well so let’s just assume he would also be right up there offensively as well. That doesn’t seem like the type of player Sutter would be ok with removing off his team.

[bizaro86]

The most Flames thing ever would be for them to cut bait on Treliving after 7 unsuccessful years, and have it turn out that he had finally learned how to be a successful NHL GM.

I can totally see him ending up in another GM role and ending up being the front office equivalent of St Louis or Savard, and building a perennial contentender/cup winner somewhere else.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

The most Flames thing ever would be for them to cut bait on Treliving after 7 unsuccessful years, and have it turn out that he had finally learned how to be a successful NHL GM.

I can totally see him ending up in another GM role and ending up being the front office equivalent of St Louis or Savard, and building a perennial contentender/cup winner somewhere else.

Could easily happen if he gets in the right market.

I have this weird feeling if Treliving is let go he ends up in Vancouver very soon

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I completely disagree.

The team will get different types of offers for their core players at the TD than they will in the offseason, but these will all be of the variety that are based on combinations of draft picks, prospects, and salary dumps. Acquiring teams will be neither interested nor able to provide returns which include equivalent NHL players. Rather, the type of return the Flames will want out of their core players is much more readily available in the offseason.

It's possible, but guys with 1 yr term haven't been hot commodities in the off-season:
https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showpo...ostcount=10013

By UFA day:
Lucic homerun return in 2015
Spezza for futures in 2014

In the fall:
Skinner for futures
30 yo Pacioretty 4.5AAV 10% retained, no trade protection for Tatar + Suzuki + 2nd.
Karlsson for futures

We can hope for a return like Patches or Lucic, but I'm not sure who the LAK/VGK would be who are willing to pay that price this year? BOS? WAS? STL? I don't think either BOS nor MTL were as under the gun to make those moves as we will be...


The Briere and Stuart deals offer some hope for Gio, but those were 7 years ago. Gio's probably gotta wait until next TDL.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

The most Flames thing ever would be for them to cut bait on Treliving after 7 unsuccessful years, and have it turn out that he had finally learned how to be a successful NHL GM.

I can totally see him ending up in another GM role and ending up being the front office equivalent of St Louis or Savard, and building a perennial contentender/cup winner somewhere else.

Wouldn't be that surprising...if the Flames were in a more desirable market this team would have Kadri and Stone (who knows who else)

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by transplant99

They most cetainly not great but they are miles ahead of a first year team after blowing it up.



Who? Ownership? Pretty obvious answer...no?



Who has that worked for recently?

Buffalo? Detroit? Other than the Rangers (who have advantages other teams do not) it takes time to rebuild teams...and even with them they are still a ways away.

Re-tool on the fly? Sure I agree. However in that case you need someone locked into what is going on in the league right now. Someone who has been in on discussions with other GM's and knows what the thinking on the other end is. Literally, some of the bigger deals take a year to get to fruition. Im assuming BT lets his assistants know what is going on, but I certainly do not want one of them over what sits in that chair now.




Top minute F, top line C and top minute D...and it wont crater the team if gone?

Come on.

That is the very definition of blowing this thing up unless you are bringing back existing NHL players in return. In which case you have to get equal production from the returnees. Unlikely to happen.

And then advocating using the cap space "properly"? Like how? UFA? Cause that is an even worse idea where you end up getting good players more often than not, but you always over pay them.

Are they actually miles ahead of a team after they blew it up? The Flames are closer to Ottawa than they are to Montreal in points %.

What do you see as a re-tool on the fly? I see that as Monahan, Gaudreau, and Giordano being traded, and I don’t expect the returns to be earth shattering but I think they’ll help.

Toronto did a targeted rebuild pretty well. I also think LA and NYR have both been efficient (after they admitted it was time to rebuild). Once you actually decide to take a step back, I’d argue you could get back to where we are today without much pain, and have hope for the future. A key part is not spending like a drunken sailor in free agency.

Using cap-space properly in my eyes is retaining cap on Johnny and Gio and not blowing your wad in free agency. Don’t make the same mistakes as this most recent “era”.

[sa226]

A lot of things have to go right to win a Cup. You don't just draw up a blueprint and set them loose.

The Flames have had all the necessary ingredients to be a perennial contender in a 3 to 5 year window. It's easy to point to the mistakes of Brouwer, Neal and Hamonic. But most GMs have blunders like that.

The Flames have drafted top 10, 3 times. They have acquired 2 more players that were top 10 picks, they had an undrafted player win the Norris and have struck gold with a couple lower draft picks. To me those are some pretty darn good ingredients for a contending team. It just hasn't panned out. They're stale and they're not good enough. It really is time to break up the core. With Sutter in as coach, who knows what happens. It's almost too little too late.

The one thing I absolutely lay at the feet of Treliving is the goaltending, with an honorable mention to coaching. In a results based business, when this group was in a decent position to win a round or 2, the goaltending absolutely let them down. That's on Treliving.

I hesitate a bit with the coaching, because I do think it's difficult to get top coaches to come here for whatever reason. Gulutzan was a mistake, but Peters was his guy. He was the one he wanted all along. Regardless of whether or not you think Treliving should have done more DD on Peters' past, that didn't end the way it was supposed to.

I'm really 50 -50 on Treliving. I think he is smart enough to recognize his mistakes and can adjust and grow. You can't discount the importance of stability. He also has done more that enough to get a big ol pink slip.

Meh.

Sent from my SM-G973W using Tapatalk

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by sa226

A lot of things have to go right to win a Cup. You don't just draw up a blueprint and set them loose.

The Flames have had all the necessary ingredients to be a perennial contender in a 3 to 5 year window. It's easy to point to the mistakes of Brouwer, Neal and Hamonic. But most GMs have blunders like that.

The Flames have drafted top 10, 3 times. They have acquired 2 more players that were top 10 picks, they had an undrafted player win the Norris and have struck gold with a couple lower draft picks. To me those are some pretty darn good ingredients for a contending team. It just hasn't panned out. They're stale and they're not good enough. It really is time to break up the core. With Sutter in as coach, who knows what happens. It's almost too little too late.

The one thing I absolutely lay at the feet of Treliving is the goaltending, with an honorable mention to coaching. In a results based business, when this group was in a decent position to win a round or 2, the goaltending absolutely let them down. That's on Treliving.

I hesitate a bit with the coaching, because I do think it's difficult to get top coaches to come here for whatever reason. Gulutzan was a mistake, but Peters was his guy. He was the one he wanted all along. Regardless of whether or not you think Treliving should have done more DD on Peters' past, that didn't end the way it was supposed to.

I'm really 50 -50 on Treliving. I think he is smart enough to recognize his mistakes and can adjust and grow. You can't discount the importance of stability. He also has done more that enough to get a big ol pink slip.

Meh.

Sent from my SM-G973W using Tapatalk

Which series did goalies really cost us? IIRC COL and DAL it wasn't an issue until elimination games (and was a bright spot before that). Against ANA our GF were 2, 2, 4, 1. Only 2 of those at EVS. Goaltending could have helped us steal that series, but it was only part of the reason we lost.

Goalies are voodoo. How many teams in the league are really, really confident in their goalies down the stretch?

TBL. ANA (irrelevant). WPG. VGK (though I'm not sure how confident they'd be with just one of them). Maybe COL - Grubauer's numbers are pretty darn good the last few years.

I'd argue that most years there are only 5-7 teams with great goaltending, and another 15-20 where it's okay, but questionable.

This year should be evidence enough that goaltending was never the thing holding this group back.

[Kovaz]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Which series did goalies really cost us? IIRC COL and DAL it wasn't an issue until elimination games (and was a bright spot before that). Against ANA our GF were 2, 2, 4, 1. Only 2 of those at EVS. Goaltending could have helped us steal that series, but it was only part of the reason we lost.

Goalies are voodoo. How many teams in the league are really, really confident in their goalies down the stretch?

TBL. ANA (irrelevant). WPG. VGK (though I'm not sure how confident they'd be with just one of them). Maybe COL - Grubauer's numbers are pretty darn good the last few years.

I'd argue that most years there are only 5-7 teams with great goaltending, and another 15-20 where it's okay, but questionable.

This year should be evidence enough that goaltending was never the thing holding this group back.

It was 100% Anaheim. We carried play across every measurable stat and lost four one-goal games with Elliott giving up 7 low-danger goals. The other fifteen teams combined to allow only 5 in the first round. If that's not a goalie costing you the series then it's just not possible.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Kovaz

It was 100% Anaheim. We carried play across every measurable stat and lost four one-goal games with Elliott giving up 7 low-danger goals. The other fifteen teams combined to allow only 5 in the first round. If that's not a goalie costing you the series then it's just not possible.

I would also say that goaltending was no longer a "bright spot" well before the elimination game in the Dallas series. Talbot was absolutely culpable for Game #4.

[flambers]

Originally Posted by sa226

A lot of things have to go right to win a Cup. You don't just draw up a blueprint and set them loose.

The Flames have had all the necessary ingredients to be a perennial contender in a 3 to 5 year window. It's easy to point to the mistakes of Brouwer, Neal and Hamonic. But most GMs have blunders like that.

The Flames have drafted top 10, 3 times. They have acquired 2 more players that were top 10 picks, they had an undrafted player win the Norris and have struck gold with a couple lower draft picks. To me those are some pretty darn good ingredients for a contending team. It just hasn't panned out. They're stale and they're not good enough. It really is time to break up the core. With Sutter in as coach, who knows what happens. It's almost too little too late.

The one thing I absolutely lay at the feet of Treliving is the goaltending, with an honorable mention to coaching. In a results based business, when this group was in a decent position to win a round or 2, the goaltending absolutely let them down. That's on Treliving.

I hesitate a bit with the coaching, because I do think it's difficult to get top coaches to come here for whatever reason. Gulutzan was a mistake, but Peters was his guy. He was the one he wanted all along. Regardless of whether or not you think Treliving should have done more DD on Peters' past, that didn't end the way it was supposed to.

I'm really 50 -50 on Treliving. I think he is smart enough to recognize his mistakes and can adjust and grow. You can't discount the importance of stability. He also has done more that enough to get a big ol pink slip.

Meh.

Sent from my SM-G973W using Tapatalk

Personally another thing the Flames Gm has is his lack of ability to make steady improvements within the Forwards.

Flames don't have a 1st line and it shows.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Wouldn't be that surprising...if the Flames were in a more desirable market this team would have Kadri and Stone (who knows who else)

Maybe Fox.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by sa226

A lot of things have to go right to win a Cup. You don't just draw up a blueprint and set them loose.

The Flames have had all the necessary ingredients to be a perennial contender in a 3 to 5 year window. It's easy to point to the mistakes of Brouwer, Neal and Hamonic. But most GMs have blunders like that.

The Flames have drafted top 10, 3 times. They have acquired 2 more players that were top 10 picks, they had an undrafted player win the Norris and have struck gold with a couple lower draft picks. To me those are some pretty darn good ingredients for a contending team. It just hasn't panned out. They're stale and they're not good enough. It really is time to break up the core. With Sutter in as coach, who knows what happens. It's almost too little too late.

The one thing I absolutely lay at the feet of Treliving is the goaltending, with an honorable mention to coaching. In a results based business, when this group was in a decent position to win a round or 2, the goaltending absolutely let them down. That's on Treliving.

I hesitate a bit with the coaching, because I do think it's difficult to get top coaches to come here for whatever reason. Gulutzan was a mistake, but Peters was his guy. He was the one he wanted all along. Regardless of whether or not you think Treliving should have done more DD on Peters' past, that didn't end the way it was supposed to.

I'm really 50 -50 on Treliving. I think he is smart enough to recognize his mistakes and can adjust and grow. You can't discount the importance of stability. He also has done more that enough to get a big ol pink slip.

Meh.

Sent from my SM-G973W using Tapatalk

I didn't like the hiring process on Peters. BUT I don't think a more fulsome process would have included canvassing all former minor league players to see if there was some incident in the past. I just thought Treliving should have looked at more candidates.

I generally agree with your overall premise. Treliving just hasn't made any mistakes out of a lack of competence (like, say, not knowing the CBA). He's made a few pro scouting assessment mistakes like all GMs do, and overpaid to get a guy he wanted, like all GMs do. When he doesn't get a player this site is "he never gets a deal done" and when he does make a trade it's "he paid too much".

[nieuwy-89]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Which series did goalies really cost us? IIRC COL and DAL it wasn't an issue until elimination games (and was a bright spot before that). Against ANA our GF were 2, 2, 4, 1. Only 2 of those at EVS. Goaltending could have helped us steal that series, but it was only part of the reason we lost.

Goalies are voodoo. How many teams in the league are really, really confident in their goalies down the stretch?

TBL. ANA (irrelevant). WPG. VGK (though I'm not sure how confident they'd be with just one of them). Maybe COL - Grubauer's numbers are pretty darn good the last few years.

I'd argue that most years there are only 5-7 teams with great goaltending, and another 15-20 where it's okay, but questionable.

This year should be evidence enough that goaltending was never the thing holding this group back.

Totally. Every year it seems a goalie gets hot at the right time and carries his team to the SCF. Khodobin last year (no one saw that coming). Binnington the year before. A guy the Blues has so little faith in that he was t even playing in their own farm system at the start of season.

Now bring this back to Treliving. He had high end goaltending prospects in Gillies and Parsons. So he tried to find capable and proven, but not elite, goalies to plug the hole until these guys developed. Elliot, Smith, Talbot. These were all considered smart moves at the time.

Is the failure on Tre for not finding a Markstrom sooner? Is it on the goalies themselves? Is it on the prospects for not panning out? Coaching? Player development?

To me it is way more complicated than just saying “Fire the GM”. What I see is a GM who continually tries to address weaknesses, and a roster that continually underachieves.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by nieuwy-89

Is the failure on Tre for not finding a Markstrom sooner? Is it on the goalies themselves? Is it on the prospects for not panning out? Coaching? Player development?

To me it is way more complicated than just saying “Fire the GM”. What I see is a GM who continually tries to address weaknesses, and a roster that continually underachieves.

Yeah that's pretty much me.

I'd add to that the drum I keep beating, which is the paramount issue on the team right now is that they had their first line dry up, which I don't think many saw coming.

Adding the likes of Tkachuk, Lindholm, Mangiapane to that base should have given them the top six needed to compete.

Didn't happen, but I don't know of any that suggested it wouldn't prior to the two players losing their five on five abilities to produce.

I just get the feeling that the GM is a guy that learns from mistakes, would seem almost silly to break in a new one and go through that same process. I guess if they could do at GM what they did at the coach level and bring in a hockey hall of fame level architect you have to look at it, but short of that stay with what they have.

[Skyceman]

Flames GM Brad Treliving’s Draft History

Note: From last year but still a good read:

https://thehockeywriters.com/flames-...draft-history/

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Yeah that's pretty much me.

I'd add to that the drum I keep beating, which is the paramount issue on the team right now is that they had their first line dry up, which I don't think many saw coming.

Adding the likes of Tkachuk, Lindholm, Mangiapane to that base should have given them the top six needed to compete.

Didn't happen, but I don't know of any that suggested it wouldn't prior to the two players losing their five on five abilities to produce.

I just get the feeling that the GM is a guy that learns from mistakes, would seem almost silly to break in a new one and go through that same process. I guess if they could do at GM what they did at the coach level and bring in a hockey hall of fame level architect you have to look at it, but short of that stay with what they have.

Well if he does not try to trade his 2021 first round pick it will be the second trade deadline in a row that he did not try to move a 1st round pick, so that would be progress.