Brad Treliving needs to go

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

That's not one of them.

I don't see why not.

[Mindtravellee]

Originally Posted by dino7c

An average UFA backup is around 4M these days...and only going up

Markstom is fine, more than fine

Guy has had a tough couple months after and injury with his team playing like ass

People act like Markstrom has the Bob or Price contract

I wonder if he's a bit in his head cause the team in front of him has been so ####. His interview after one of our early losses when the team sucked was "My team needs me to be better". Wonder if he's trying too much now/I can't let anything in

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Jacks

What do you expect he would have? it was supposed to be the beginning stages of a rebuild.
- He had some premium talent on the roster to either build on or trade away.
- He had plenty of good prospects, many didn't pan out which isn't unusual. He could have chosen to keep them or trade them.
- He had all of his draft picks and the ability to add more by dealing veterans, which in some cases he did.
- He had tons of cap space, no anchor contracts.

Plenty of good prospects? Who? Look at that list.
The previous regime extracted nothing of value out of the previous core (Iginla, Kipper, Regehr, Langkow, etc). If handled properly he would have some additional asset capital to work with.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by troutman

Maybe the other teams "solved" those 4 players.

I don't think Gaudreau was "solved", but I do think he is one of those players that just peaked early. When your whole game is based on precision, even a small deterioration of motor skills can make a difference. Unfortunately, he doesn't have much else to offer so I think powerplay specialist is in his future. He is deadly if he has time and room, but doesn't seem to have the quickness he used to.

There does seem to be some chemistry issues. While Bennett is the only one to openly request trade consideration, I wouldn't be shocked if there are more unhappy players. Too many guys just punching the clock.

[Bingo]

To me everything comes down to Johnny Gaudreau and Sean Monahan.

Treliving built around the notion that they were 2/3 of a first line. From the 18/19 all star break to today they haven't been.

It's his job to make that call, and be right for sure. But honestly how many on this site disagreed with that assumption? Because that's what's gone wrong.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Bingo

To me everything comes down to Johnny Gaudreau and Sean Monahan.

Treliving built around the notion that they were 2/3 of a first line. From the 18/19 all star break to today they haven't been.

It's his job to make that call, and be right for sure. But honestly how many on this site disagreed with that assumption? Because that's what's gone wrong.

I still think they are top line players. But the support on RW has been lacking ever since the idea of getting Lindholm away from them came up. Granted they were really lighting the world on fire after the ASG together, but post Lindholm has been an adventure to plug in a player on that line. And it's magnified the issues.

I will say though, Monahan has taken an offensive output hit while trying to round out his game defensively.

But worse than that has been Gaudreaus game has gone stale while the Flames have clamped down on their playing style.

IMO, it's only gonna get worse for Johnny here.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by dammage79

I still think they are top line players. But the support on RW has been lacking ever since the idea of getting Lindholm away from them came up. Granted they were really lighting the world on fire after the ASG together, but post Lindholm has been an adventure to plug in a player on that line. And it's magnified the issues.

I will say though, Monahan has taken an offensive output hit while trying to round out his game defensively.

But worse than that has been Gaudreaus game has gone stale while the Flames have clamped down on their playing style.

IMO, it's only gonna get worse for Johnny here.

It's been over two years ... they've had Lindholm back and it still doesn't work.

My point though is ... did you see that coming?

Because that's the crux of issue with this team stalling.

[Roof-Daddy]

When those 4 players were tearing the league up I remember thinking this has to be too good to be true.

Turns out it was.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

If anything, the organization is in worse shape now than when Brad took over. Bottom 5 prospect pool, veteran-heavy team of underperformers with several albatross deals on the books, no surplus of picks, no especially high-value contracts to capitalize on, and a core that won’t really return much via trade because of the term left on their deals.

It’s probably most similar to what Sutter left Jay Feaster to work with, if anything.

nearly everything in here is wrong.

The Flames are in a far better position today than they were when Treliving took over. The teams drafting and developing has been better since the late 80's/early 90's. They have consistently produced NHL players at a pace that hadn't been seen in years; Bennett, Tkachuk, Mangiapanne, Dube, Andersson, Rittich, and we may see more by years end.

Bottom 5 prospect pool? according to who?

veteran core? Sure Gio is 37 Tanev is 31, Markstrom 31, other than that everyone is 27 or younger. Definitely not past their prime and still very much movable assets.

Who else has an albatross deal aside from Lucic, who is actually been reasonably productive for his role. I'm not sure if there is another 'albatross' contract on the roster. Some are complete steals (Lindholm and Hanifin).

Nor surplus of picks? I believe we have all our picks for the next two drafts, aside from the 2021 4th, but we have an additional 3rd.

Seems like your letting your bias cloud your ability to see things for what they actually are. There's plenty of that happening around here these days.

[Red]

Originally Posted by Bingo

It's been over two years ... they've had Lindholm back and it still doesn't work.

My point though is ... did you see that coming.

Because that's the crux of issue with this team stalling.

To be fair a lot of people outside of Calgary had questions about both, Monahan and Gauderau. Especially after the first couple playoff series vs the Ducks.
They were always flawed but somehow beat the odds on the scoresheet. Kept the fans here hoping there was some magic there.

As for firing Treliving. I think he should be let go, he built this mess. But at the same time we don't know the moves he didn't make because of other factors, ones outside of his control. So we can't really tell for sure if he owns this mess completely or if it's a "Calgary" thing that worked against him.

But then again, it's about building a winning team and he failed that. The individual moves were hit and miss, as they are for all GMs. He did fail to deliver a top line RW and a goalie. The lineup has always been out of balance. Always lacked the right shot on the PP. He didn't address these glaring needs. He finally got Markstrom, but that's like 5 years too late.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by dino7c

An average UFA backup is around 4M these days...and only going up

Markstom is fine, more than fine

Guy has had a tough couple months after and injury with his team playing like ass

People act like Markstrom has the Bob or Price contract

Only on VGK or MTL...

The 31st highest paid goalie is 3.333M.

There are a bunch of guys around 45th at 1.5M.

1.5M is about the median and average for a backup.


Markstrom is injury prone and no spring chicken. The deal is okay, but it's not unreasonable to worry about the back half of it.

[Sylvanfan]

Without knowing what ownership is asking, for me I can't definitively say. I suspect the owner is a bit forceful in insisting the team start winning sooner than later, and more focused on the shorter term results. If that's the case, than I do think any GM is going to have a hard time improving a team in that environment.

The team is better today than it was when he took over. But it is critical mass time though as he's really getting squeezed now. No other GM in team history had to manage a team thru a pandemic like this that changed things this suddenly. So the people saying he should have traded Gaudreau or hired Gallant..well easy to say, but I think it's a lot harder to do.

Winnipeg had that steamer season...fell back for two straight years, but look to have rebounded pretty well. I'm not comparing the talent of the teams or the ages of the players, but maybe a couple of moves can change a dynamic to get this team back on track.

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Plenty of good prospects? Who? Look at that list.
The previous regime extracted nothing of value out of the previous core (Iginla, Kipper, Regehr, Langkow, etc). If handled properly he would have some additional asset capital to work with.

I feel like this has been gone through before and I'll probably miss something but he had:
Monahan who was still in his rookie season.
Gaudreau who I don't think had played a game at that point.
Baertschi who while struggling still had a lot of potential, if nothing else he had trade value which Treliving wisely took advantage of.
Ferland who was about to take a regular NHL spot.
Jankowski who didn't become a world beater but was a good prospect who became a regular NHL'er.

He also had Poirier, Klimchuk, Gillies who were considered to be very good prospects. Poirier was showing a lot of promise until his addiction issues. I don't know what the hell happened to Gillies, probably the same thing that happens to all of our goalie prospects.

He had the 4th overall pick in the upcoming draft. If he didn't like the player available he could have traded down which he has done since. I dont blame him for taking Bennett though, that was the no brainer move at the time. He had almost all of his draft picks, all of the high ones.

It's not like he had a mess to clean up, he had a clear path to shape the team however he wanted. It's been 7 years, it's time to stop blaming the previous management.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Bingo

It's been over two years ... they've had Lindholm back and it still doesn't work.

My point though is ... did you see that coming?

Because that's the crux of issue with this team stalling.

People have definitely been talking about changes to the core since the Colorado series...and if not then, most certainly after last year's playoffs. I don't see how 2 years isn't enough time for the GM to make changes to the top line. He has gambled on them getting back their game and that is 100% on him.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Igottago

People have definitely been talking about changes to the core since the Colorado series...and if not then, most certainly after last year's playoffs. I don't see how 2 years isn't enough time for the GM to make changes to the top line. He has gambled on them getting back their game and that is 100% on him.

With the team finishing first in the conference that season I certainly see a patient approach.

Last year was that year and it didn't work out.

But as I say ... his call was that they were first line players, and I honestly don't think there were many on this site that would have disagreed with him.

That's the issue.

Right now they're not. They haven't been for a long time.

You can certainly fire a GM for that, but I wouldn't considering I thought in a similar fashion.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Jacks

I feel like this has been gone through before and I'll probably miss something but he had:
Monahan who was still in his rookie season.
Gaudreau who I don't think had played a game at that point.
Baertschi who while struggling still had a lot of potential, if nothing else he had trade value which Treliving wisely took advantage of.
Ferland who was about to take a regular NHL spot.
Jankowski who didn't become a world beater but was a good prospect who became a regular NHL'er.

He also had Poirier, Klimchuk, Gillies who were considered to be very good prospects. Poirier was showing a lot of promise until his addiction issues. I don't know what the hell happened to Gillies, probably the same thing that happens to all of our goalie prospects.

He had the 4th overall pick in the upcoming draft. If he didn't like the player available he could have traded down which he has done since. I dont blame him for taking Bennett though, that was the no brainer move at the time. He had almost all of his draft picks, all of the high ones.

It's not like he had a mess to clean up, he had a clear path to shape the team however he wanted. It's been 7 years, it's time to stop blaming the previous management.

Yes Monahan and Gaudreau are part of the young talent I referred to.
But I dispute that the rest of the prospect base was strong. It wasn't.

As an aside, Gillies' career was largely de-railed by his hip issues I think.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Jacks

Monahan
Gaudreau
Baertschi
Ferland
Jankowski
Poirier
Klimchuk
Gillies
4th overall pick in the upcoming draft

In retrospect, that is not great.

It's not like he had a mess to clean up, he had a clear path to shape the team however he wanted. It's been 7 years, it's time to stop blaming the previous management.

I don't see it as "blaming the previous management." Rather I think it is a recognition that this was probably always going to take more than seven years. In mean, why wouldn't it? There are hardly any teams that are able to rebuild on that timetable; most actually take a lot longer.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Bingo

With the team finishing first in the conference that season I certainly see a patient approach.

Last year was that year and it didn't work out.

But as I say ... his call was that they were first line players, and I honestly don't think there were many on this site that would have disagreed with him.

That's the issue.

Right now they're not. They haven't been for a long time.

You can certainly fire a GM for that, but I wouldn't considering I thought in a similar fashion.

Like I said, if I'm recalling correctly there was plenty of talk on this very board and in the media of the need for changes going back over the 2 year period. So people did notice something was off. Its not like everyone thought they were still flying high. I don't think its been at all unanimous that everyone wanted Gaudreau and Monahan to continue being the go to guys here.

I think Treliving has had plenty of time to see what has been unfolding in front of him and react accordingly.

[timbit]

Originally Posted by Bingo

With the team finishing first in the conference that season I certainly see a patient approach.

Last year was that year and it didn't work out.

But as I say ... his call was that they were first line players, and I honestly don't think there were many on this site that would have disagreed with him.

That's the issue.

Right now they're not. They haven't been for a long time.

You can certainly fire a GM for that, but I wouldn't considering I thought in a similar fashion.

Relating to Monahan and Gaudreau, the other issue is their current asset value.

Other teams have monitored the plunge they have taken, over the last 2 years.

That will certainly be reflected in the interest and the subsequent offers the Flames receive.

Added to the problem are stagnant and perhaps lowering salary caps ;Flames will have to take back similar salaries.

Bottom line, it is a disastrous time for , arguably, your top 2 forwards to literally fall flat on their faces.

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

In retrospect, that is not great.

It was supposed to be the early stages of a full rebuild, that's not a terrible start.

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I don't see it as "blaming the previous management." Rather I think it is a recognition that this was probably always going to take more than seven years. In mean, why wouldn't it? There are hardly any teams that are able to rebuild on that timetable; most actually take a lot longer.

The fans might recognize that it would take several years of growing assets to emerge as a contender but team management certainly didn't think that way. I don't care if people want to blame Treliving or the owners but the team should be good by now, not getting worse.