[PGT] Best team ever 3 Flames 1

[keenan87]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Because the point of sports is to win?

How do you know what "high" is?

Sounds like message board stock market experts - Buy Low Sell High!

Every year a lot of player have a new career high, until the next season when they surpass that high

You really think the Flames should have traded Gio after finishing 1st in the west and him winning the Norris with a team that had all their core players in their prime?

This isnt the Flames holding onto Iggy way too long trying to sneak into 8th. This was the best team in the NHL coming off a 1st round loss.

TB got swept in the 1st round also that year. They didnt trade their best players and then won the cup.

Or you realize his age and have some foresight. This wasn't a 27 year old dman winning the norris in his prime.

Instead, the Flames are now stuck with an anchor of a contract.

Its simple asset management.

[Enoch Root]

Sell high is such an over-used argument by fans. It's easy to say after a player declines, but the idea is to build good teams with good players, not 'sell high' every time a player excels.

I guess New England should have 'sold high' on Brodie 14 times?

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Flame On

So can't be a fan unless you've played high level sports now? Wow

Where did it say you can't be a fan?

No where is saying "Gio is a bad captain" being a fan.

That is people stating an opinion as a fact. And if you have never played a sport with a CAPTAIN, it is a baseless opinion, and certainly not a fact.

Don't play the "Can't be a fan unless you played the sport" card here.

Having actual knowledge of what a captain does IS REQUIRED if someone wants to critique the ability of said position and call the player "The worst captain ever"

Or Not, random non-sensical non informed opinions are allowed. They are just wrong.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by keenan87

Or you realize his age and have some foresight. This wasn't a 27 year old dman winning the norris in his prime.

Instead, the Flames are now stuck with an anchor of a contract.

Its simple asset management.

We were.... 1st in the west and 2nd in the NHL

Our core was all in their primes.

If you aren't trying to win under those circumstances... When are you?

Flames have made numerous terrible asset management choices over the past 30 years. Keeping Gio after the Norris season and finishing 1st wasnt one of them

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Just want to point out that the Flames have scored 2 goals in 3 games and we are complaining about D and even some goaltending mixed in earlier

If the forwards were scoring at even an average pace the Flames would be on a 4 game winning streak


Flames aren't allowing much

True

I alluded to the same in the post above, and the one problem that I have with the D is that Gio and Ras aren’t turning up ice and having their unit contribute offensively

(And yes I know Gio got a goal, but that was not a strong chance, it was an o zone point shot deflected, the kind of thing that can happen to anyone. Gio used to get points by being threatening often during a game, not lucking out on a point shot hitting a guy’s ass)

[The Boy Wonder]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

So you are arguing for non-guaranteed contracts?

100% ok with it. I understand NHL has historically never gone that route but...

I work in a very competitive field and I know that if my employer wants to terminate the contract (without cause) then I am due pay effectively equal to a years severance plus accrued bonuses owed to me (as negotiated)

Obviously NHL hockey would get a bit nuanced but the fact remains that I disagree completely with fully guaranteed contracts for services not yet rendered

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by The Boy Wonder

100% ok with it. I understand NHL has historically never gone that route but...

I work in a very competitive field and I know that if my employer wants to terminate the contract (without cause) then I am due pay effectively equal to a years severance plus accrued bonuses owed to me (as negotiated)

Obviously NHL hockey would get a bit nuanced but the fact remains that I disagree completely with fully guaranteed contracts for services not yet rendered

OK, just wanted to make sure we are talking about a totally imaginary universe.

[The Boy Wonder]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

OK, just wanted to make sure we are talking about a totally imaginary universe.

Let a guy dream.

It doesn’t seem unreasonable to ask for a player to earn his contract same way you or I would have to in the real world

[CGY12]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Sell high is such an over-used argument by fans. It's easy to say after a player declines, but the idea is to build good teams with good players, not 'sell high' every time a player excels.

I guess New England should have 'sold high' on Brodie 14 times?

Brady won titles, took his team deep in the playoffs. How is that remotely similar? lol. Gio's Flames at that point had went 2 - 12 in 14 playoff games and got steamed rolled in 3 straight rounds.

Considering his age, his value and the TEAM results, it should have been absolutely considered. The Flames did the exact same thing with Iginla, Regehr and Bouwmeester and it got them nothing back.

In order to avoid situations like the one were in now, difficult decisions need to be made.

[dino7c]

Jaybo was actually traded in his prime with another year left on his deal...Feaster just made a bad trade


I guess in hindsight you can trade every player that has a career year but its not a realistic way to look at it...you guys are also assuming whatever you trade for works out. Every other GM knew Gio's age.

[Classic_Sniper]

All this Gio is bad captain talk is as stupid as the coaching bull####. Why does everyone focus so much on all the inconsequential stuff rather than the important stuff? This isn't about leadership or about one guy. Gio is a fantastic captain and his exemplary leadership and work ethic should be applauded.

This is about a poorly built, flawed team that we as fans put too much stock into. They were never contenders, their maximum potential was always a bubble playoff team/first round fodder and that's exactly what they proved they've been for the last half decade.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Also, he’s the captain and the Flames have gotten more than full value out of the bulk of the contract. There is some honour in the org. You need to accept and deal with that

By "bulk" you mean less than half? He may have won the Norris, but there hasn't been much to like since then. He was -3 in the Colorado series, +2 last season, -1 in the bubble, and -8 this season.

Tremendous in 18-19, very good in 16-17, mediocre in 17-18 and 19-20, and bad this season. So he played way above his pay grade in one season, at his pay grade in one, slightly below in two, and WAY below in one (likely two). I wouldn't call that getting full value.

You don't call a contract a steal just because you got great value in 2 out of the 6 years. If it resulted in a deep playoff run or two you could maybe make a case, but it didn't.

[Joborule]

Giordano won the norris in a season the Flames finished 2nd in the NHL.

Hindsight is 20/20. There was no case at all at that time to trade the MVP of your team after having the best regular season the franchise had in eons. At that time, the only mindset of the franchise (and fanbase) was that the team was within their window to contend. Why the #### would you trade your norris D-man then?

It's also why none of the core forward players were traded then. The goal was to add to it, rather than do a lateral trade. There was expectations that the team could at least be a sure bet to make the playoff comfortably the next season. Now, two years later, the future of the team is in a much different direction that what could've been expected.

[Flame On]

Originally Posted by The Boy Wonder

Let a guy dream.

It doesn’t seem unreasonable to ask for a player to earn his contract same way you or I would have to in the real world

Doesn't even have to be imaginary if you look at other sports leagues.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

The NHL is not like the NFL. Boston didn't move Chara when they should have. Chicago did not trade Toews and Kane when they should have. SJ did not trade Pavelski when they should have. Philadelphia did not trade Giroux or Voracek when they should have. Every team goes through this.

"Should have" depends on the trade value those players would have had (be it positive or negative). It's possible their values weren't what you might think.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Flame On

Doesn't even have to be imaginary if you look at other sports leagues.

It’s imaginary for the NHL (also MLB and NBA). What I mean is - it’s never going to change. The union in the NHL is much stronger than the NFL on such things.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

We were.... 1st in the west and 2nd in the NHL

Our core was all in their primes.

If you aren't trying to win under those circumstances... When are you?

Flames have made numerous terrible asset management choices over the past 30 years. Keeping Gio after the Norris season and finishing 1st wasnt one of them

They got smashed by Colorado in the 1st round, got swept by Anaheim a couple years prior, and got smashed by Anaheim a couple years before that. The book was out on this team in terms of their inability to get results in the playoffs. Quit pretending it wasn't.

I guess in hindsight you can trade every player that has a career year

Nice strawman. You have to look at each situation on a case by case basis. Sometimes moving a player who had a career year makes sense. Other times it doesn't.

[dino7c]

I can also give you a list of players the Flames should have drafted...can do the same with every other team in the NHL

the hindsight game

[CGY12]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Jaybo was actually traded in his prime with another year left on his deal...Feaster just made a bad trade


I guess in hindsight you can trade every player that has a career year but its not a realistic way to look at it...you guys are also assuming whatever you trade for works out. Every other GM knew Gio's age.

Again I'm not assuming anything. It may not have worked out, it may have, who the hell knows. But the on ice results shouldn't have precluded Gio from being moved when his value was considered high. The org has a history of holding on for too long and in a business where evaluation and honest assessment is key to success, the Flames have failed miserably.

[The Boy Wonder]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

It’s imaginary for the NHL (also MLB and NBA). What I mean is - it’s never going to change. The union in the NHL is much stronger than the NFL on such things.

Agreed.

Still doesn’t make it right. Shouldn’t have to pay up front for services you don’t know you’re gonna get, nfl is by far the most “fair pay for fair play” league in North America.