Brad Treliving needs to go

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by TOfan

First of all, worth noting the sweetheart deal you reference was signed by this GM. Johnny’s best season was with a RW Treliving acquired.

What did BT break, exactly? And what fantasy scenario do you ascribe to that would have ‘fixed’ the team?

He had the Hamonic trade which was a tough look for any GM.

His mercifully thwarted attempt to trade the Flames 2019 first round pick for 4 years of a 5.5 million dollar Jason Zucker would have been a tough look.

The James Neal, Troy Brouwer and Michael Stone signings were tough for the franchise, but the consequences for those signings from a cap perspective are over by 2023.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

He had the Hamonic trade which was a tough look for any GM.

His mercifully thwarted attempt to trade the Flames 2019 first round pick for 4 years of a 5.5 million dollar Jason Zucker would have been a tough look.

The James Neal, Troy Brouwer and Michael Stone signings were tough for the franchise, but the consequences for those signings from a cap perspective are over by 2023.

Show me a mistake free GM and I’ll show you leprechaun.

On balance, Treliving has been pretty good. He’s not repeating his mistakes and the organization is in a much better place than it was before he got here.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Show me a mistake free GM and I’ll show you leprechaun.

On balance, Treliving has been pretty good. He’s not repeating his mistakes and the organization is in a much better place than it was before he got here.

I guess, he did try to trade his first round pick for a mediocre hockey player one year after he traded his first and two second round picks for a mediocre hockey player. An optimist can hope he is learning from his mistakes or it could be that the right situation has not arose to trade his first round pick again for a mediocre hockey player.

I would also be curious about what assets put this franchise in a better place? Not really sure what those exactly are

[Red]

A GM should be evaluated by how his team is doing, not individual trades or signings. Nobody gives a flying crap about the return he got for Glencross when the team he built can't make playoffs in this terrible division. He gets an F.

With that said I feel they will keep him.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

I guess, he did try to trade his first round pick for a mediocre hockey player one year after he traded his first and two second round picks for a mediocre hockey player. An optimist can hope he is learning from his mistakes or it could be that the right situation has not arose to trade his first round pick again for a mediocre hockey player.

I would also be curious about what assets put this franchise in a better place? Not really sure what those exactly are

Lindholm, Hanifin, Mangiapane, Tkachuk, Dube, Valamaki, Tanev, Markstrom off the current roster. And, yes, I would say the team is better today than the team that beat the Canucks in 14/15 even if the results aren’t the same. I would also say the scouting department has improved, markedly.

The Zucker trade is moot, and we have no idea how it would have changed things. It’s not really worth much of a discussion.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Red

A GM should be evaluated by how his team is doing, not individual trades or signings. Nobody gives a flying crap about the return he got for Glencross when the team he built can't make playoffs in this terrible division. He gets an F.

With that said I feel they will keep him.

Well, they haven’t missed the playoffs yet.

And I agree, I feel they will keep him for at least another year. Despite my defence of his work, I think he is down to his last few bullets. I would be shocked if, regardless of how this season unfolds short of a trip to the finals, one or both of JG and SM aren’t moved this offseason.

[Red]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

What do you mean? They hired Sutter as Ward was fired. What doesn’t align with everything you know?

I'd like to know that too. When was there a time when the Flames were looking for a coach and Sutter was available?

Not when they hired GG. Sutter was employed by LA.
Not when they hired Peters, Tre wanted him since the World's and waited for Carolina to let him go.
So last off season would be the only time. So Sutter said no, but changed his mind a couple months later when the team was in the tank? He was so eager to coach the Flames but somehow said no in the off season only to change his mind when the Flames got themselves in a hole? Treliving always knew Sutter was the guy for this team but somehow he hired Bill Peters without talking to Sutter?
Makes absolute 0 sense.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Red

I'd like to know that too. When was there a time when the Flames were looking for a coach and Sutter was available?

Not when they hired GG. Sutter was employed by LA.
Not when they hired Peters, Tre wanted him since the World's and waited for Carolina to let him go.
So last off season would be the only time. So Sutter said no, but changed his mind a couple months later when the team was in the tank? He was so eager to coach the Flames but somehow said no in the off season only to change his mind when the Flames got themselves in a hole? Treliving always knew Sutter was the guy for this team but somehow he hired Bill Peters without talking to Sutter?
Makes absolute 0 sense.

Didn’t Sutter delay his arrival the first time around so he could go to a rodeo in Las Vegas? Also, I could be wrong, but didn’t Sutter retire from coaching? Maybe part of it was he didn’t know he wanted to come back. Not that far of a reach after all.

Of course we are all just speculating. Bottom line, and the only thing that matters, is Darryl Sutter is now the coach. So the long held argument that Treliving is terrible at hiring coaches can be put to rest.

[Da_Chief]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Okay, a list of low hanging fruit type complaints. What’s your strategy to improve? How much are you willing to bet any of it comes to fruition? Does this new GM come with a No1C?

I'm not getting paid to fix the team nor am I in charge to do that so it doesn't matter what ideas I have. Why would I be betting if my ideas would come to fruition when I have zero say in the matter. Ridiculous comment!

Since you need to be told, no the new GM does not come with a no1C but if he has as little success as the current guy after this long then I'd call him to be replaced too. Unlike you I don't have a personal attachment to management that works for my favorite team. Win and the fanbase is happy, lose and you can move on.

[powderjunkie]

Regarding his failure to make changes, I don't think we can overlook the impact of the COVID off-season and how quiet it was for making big changes.


For me it boils down to the last TDL. I was banging the drum hard to move Gaudreau before the ED and NTC loomed larger. I argued it didn't preclude us from making the playoffs and even going on a run (albeit certainly less likely). As it was, he popped a whopping 1 EVP (an EN goal when we lead WPG 5-2).


That TDL was a big crossroads - I'm very curious what happened behind the scenes leading up to it (if they explored moving JG, what BT's recommended course of action was, and what the ultimate mandate from ownership)

[Red]

I am not saying that Treliving is bad at hiring coaches. I'm just questioning the logic of those that keep saying that hiring Sutter was Trelivings decision. I would be pretty hard to make sense of it. The owners getting involved on the other hand would be pretty easy to understand, they have a great relationship with Sutter after all.

And I have no problem with it either, sometimes a GM needs to get a nudge.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Lindholm, Hanifin, Mangiapane, Tkachuk, Dube, Valamaki, Tanev, Markstrom off the current roster. And, yes, I would say the team is better today than the team that beat the Canucks in 14/15 even if the results aren’t the same. I would also say the scouting department has improved, markedly.

The Zucker trade is moot, and we have no idea how it would have changed things. It’s not really worth much of a discussion.

I personally do not see anybody under the age of 24 who can compare with Monahan, Gaudreau and Brodie, all of whom were under 24 when Brad took over. Hard to imagine any of the players or prospects we have that are 5 years or less out of their draft year being as good as those three ended up being.

We don’t have to discuss the failed Zucker trade other than to point out that he does not really seem to learn from his mistakes and seems willing to burn 1st rounders to get mediocre hockey players.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Red

I am not saying that Treliving is bad at hiring coaches. I'm just questioning the logic of those that keep saying that hiring Sutter was Trelivings decision. I would be pretty hard to make sense of it. The owners getting involved on the other hand would be pretty easy to understand, they have a great relationship with Sutter after all.

And I have no problem with it either, sometimes a GM needs to get a nudge.

I definitely think the owners were involved. I don’t believe though that the decision was forced upon Treliving or taken out of his hands. Based on what we have heard, this has been on the radar for a while. Unless of course Treliving is lying, which would make him incompetent and a liar in the eyes of some around here.

[Flame On]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Fixed.

Complaining about league min contracts. Hilarious. Is Treliving the only GM out there doing this?

What a cherry picker, jesus.
When league minimum contracts are simply part of the mix now on why the team is in pretty poor shape, then there's nothing to be pious about others posts when talking about them.

[Red]

Originally Posted by TOfan

I definitely think the owners were involved. I don’t believe though that the decision was forced upon Treliving or taken out of his hands. Based on what we have heard, this has been on the radar for a while. Unless of course Treliving is lying, which would make him incompetent and a liar in the eyes of some around here.

This wasn't directed at you. Others keep denying the possibility that Tres hand was tipped.

And of course Treliving is not telling everyone the truth. It's part of being a GM of a team or any higher up position in any corporate world.

[Two Fivenagame]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Regarding his failure to make changes, I don't think we can overlook the impact of the COVID off-season and how quiet it was for making big changes.


For me it boils down to the last TDL. I was banging the drum hard to move Gaudreau before the ED and NTC loomed larger. I argued it didn't preclude us from making the playoffs and even going on a run (albeit certainly less likely). As it was, he popped a whopping 1 EVP (an EN goal when we lead WPG 5-2).


That TDL was a big crossroads - I'm very curious what happened behind the scenes leading up to it (if they explored moving JG, what BT's recommended course of action was, and what the ultimate mandate from ownership)

Absolutely.

He also failed to get anything for Hamonic or Brodie because he made a bad bet on the roster.

I think a good GM doesn't fall in love with his own team so he can have some rational clarity.

And I'm starting to hate this "just get in" mantra. I think that lets players achieve the bare minimum and win one game in the playoffs. It should be win it all.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by TOfan

First of all, worth noting the sweetheart deal you reference was signed by this GM. Johnny’s best season was with a RW Treliving acquired.

What did BT break, exactly? And what fantasy scenario do you ascribe to that would have ‘fixed’ the team?

Well considering Johnny Gaudreau was an RFA who had no arbitration rights and no ability to sign an offer sheet, I would say it’s pretty easy to negotiate when you hold virtually all the leverage and bargaining power. So sure, I can give Treliving credit for that along with other RFA re-signings. But in the grand scheme of things, one James Neal contract or one Troy Brouwer contract or one Michael Stone contract and others can easily derail any cap savings garnered from shrewd re-signings.

Treliving has had 7 years to take this team with great young pieces, solid foundational core players, a good cap situation to the next level and he hasn’t, not even close. They’ve dominated in their last 3 or 4 first round playoff series. They’ve made it to the playoffs in consecutive seasons only once and their previously wide open window looks to be shutting. The core players of this team that Treliving chose to ride with are consistently being subjected to trade proposals every day here. This group has seen 5 head coaches under Treliving’s watch. What’s so great about our situation in your opinion?

There’s a lot of defenses that you’re throwing, but compared to every Canadian team right now, the Flames are in the worst position. The window is closing quick, the cupboards are look pretty barren. Honestly, the poorly run Ottawa Senators with a meddlesome owner appear to turning the corner pretty quick here. The Flames on the other-hand look like a team that’s ready to be mediocre for the next several years and that’s death in the NHL.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

This is what is comes down to.

He made a bet that his core of Johnny, Mony, Gio were the guys to build around.
A bet others would have made too, but ultimately the wrong bet and accountability is needed. He seems to be the fist person to throw that word out there, it goes for him too.

He did make some good moves to add supporting parts and I generally like most of what he has done.
You can argue those players have let him down more than he has let the organization down, but it is what it is.

His bet on the top players of this team hasn't worked and he shouldn't be the guy to make the next big bet.

His top line is flawed, not enough skill, not enough size, or speed. What type of team are we at this point? Not sure Treliving had a good idea of what he was building to go out and and got the types of players t o match the blueprint.. My guess is due to lack of experience or a plan he acquired players that seemed a good fit, or matched his check list.

Burke wanted players with size and truculence. The problem with the Flames is we have a little of everything and our top and second line is not that hard to play against.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by DazzlinDino

His top line is flawed, not enough skill, not enough size, or speed. What type of team are we at this point? Not sure Treliving had a good idea of what he was building to go out and and got the types of players t o match the blueprint.. My guess is due to lack of experience or a plan he acquired players that seemed a good fit, or matched his check list.

Burke wanted players with size and truculence. The problem with the Flames is we have a little of everything and our top and second line is not that hard to play against.

From what I can see, it looks like Treliving was trying to build a skilled team that can play possession style hockey, very connected, very strong D-core that can pinch or jump in and act as a 4th forward to sustain offensive zone time.

Problem is, I think that vision has failed and now he’ll be pivoting and going the opposite direction. Less skill and more will. If Treliving does stays on, my guess is he’ll probably look to trade the skilled players and add hard hat, lunch pail types who will play simple, basic, north-south no nonsense hockey, less east-west types. This team will probably focus on giving up less goals and winning 2-1 instead of 3-1.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Two Fivenagame

Absolutely.

He also failed to get anything for Hamonic or Brodie because he made a bad bet on the roster.

I think a good GM doesn't fall in love with his own team so he can have some rational clarity.

And I'm starting to hate this "just get in" mantra. I think that lets players achieve the bare minimum and win one game in the playoffs. It should be win it all.

Treliving traded Brodie to Toronto in 2019 for Nazeem Kadri. It was a done deal that was kiboshed by Kadri deciding to invoke his NTC protection.

Hamonic was not an easy player to move at any point in 2019, and by the TD last year he was already sidelined with an injury, and untradeable.

Neither player qualifies as as an an example of the GM "fall[ing] in love with his own team."