Brad Treliving needs to go

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Don't disagree with much here. TOfan. I still see the organization as no better than average compared to rest of league in much of anything. Prospect depth, cap management, big league talent. Considering what Treliving started with, it should be better IMO.

Yes. I guess that could be said, but if you look at the trades, hires, signings along the way most of Treliving’s decisions have been sound in my opinion. Of course not all of them have worked out, and I’m a broken record here, but all GM’s make mistakes. I think there have been a number of things that have been outside of the hands of Treliving that have altered the trajectory of this team. Sam Bennett not reaching his potential, no lottery draft luck, Kadri blocking the trade, flat cap and pandemic impacting the NHL trade market. How do you fault Treliving for these?

Still, I think the Flames are set up quite well. It’s entirely possible the Glames miss the playoffs this year and I’m sure if this is the case even more will be calling for Treliving’s dismissal, but I still don’t think that would be the right move. I see the remainder of this year as a testing ground for next year. One way or the other I do think we will see one or two significant trades this offseason and I bet those discussions with other teams are already underway.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Toonage

There are pretty big gaps from where he traded picks away for nothing. The funny thing is there is a recent interview on the Athletic where Treliving says he doesn't like to give away picks for rentals (though will do it) and yet the track record says otherwise. He seems almost too comfortable with it.

"But, I’m not a big fan of giving up second-round picks and first-round picks for somebody that could be with you for a short period of time. For me, if you’re giving up those assets I’d always like to have more team control over the players for a longer period of time. If you’re giving up that type of asset, I just haven’t been a fan of those players walking out the door on you.

But there’s certainly times you have to do that, and it’s all about the state your team is in."

This argument that Treliving just sends picks away is tired.

TC listed it earlier today, but Treliving has also acquired several draft picks. The thing about draft picks is that they are like water. They’re always there and they’re always going to be there. If Treliving wanted to stockpile picks, he could do that in short order.

[Toonage]

I guess what bothers me, and this goes for any GM but he is the GM of the team I follow so it hits closer is that they didn't retain anything for the picks spent. Then went ahead and signed similar players anyway. Like Vlad just said, spend wisely or don't do anything. Glad to see some picks recouped like in the last draft but it's the spending around the deadline that seems hypocritical to what he said in that interview or at the least a bit concerning if he thinks the team is better than what it is and requires that level of help.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Toonage

I guess what bothers me, and this goes for any GM but he is the GM of the team I follow so it hits closer is that they didn't retain anything for the picks spent. Then went ahead and signed similar players anyway. Like Vlad just said, spend wisely or don't do anything. Glad to see some picks recouped like in the last draft but it's the spending around the deadline that seems hypocritical to what he said in that interview or at the least a bit concerning if he thinks the team is better than what it is and requires that level of help.

Sure, but got arguments sake, if the Flames reigned Forbirt or Gustavson, is Valamaki playing today?

I don’t think I’m out of line in saying that if they had extended either of this to, or even Fantenburg, there would be many people here complaining about that.

[Toonage]

But those players could have also been turned into additional assets or picks. He could have had something rather than nothing. What he says in that quote flies in the face of what he has actually done. He gave up the type of assets he doesn't want to for players that didn't have the team control he would like and they did end up walking out the door.

And was his team in a state where they could afford to give those assets up for nothing? His PTO hires and FA signings suggest otherwise.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Toonage

But those players could have also been turned into additional assets or picks. He could have had something rather than nothing. What he says in that quote flies in the face of what he has actually done. He gave up the type of assets he doesn't want to for players that didn't have the team control he would like and they did end up walking out the door.

In his statement he talks about giving up 1&2 round picks. The players he has acquired for those assets are Hamilton and Hamonic, both of which had term and control. If anything he has acquired second round picks for players who would be considered rentals; Russell, Glencross, and Hudler.

Maybe I’m missing something though.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by chedder

He is 7 years on the job and has built a team that just can't take that next step. I know every team cannot until they can but it seems this core doesn't have the skill, determination and whatever else you need to go deep in the playoffs. That is on the GM. I'm more than willing to give Sutter some time to see what he can get out of this group but I think there needs to be major lineup changes this summer. Many people believe a core shakeup was needed after the Colorado embarrassment. He could have done it then. I don't think Treliving is the guy to do it now.

This is what is comes down to.

He made a bet that his core of Johnny, Mony, Gio were the guys to build around.
A bet others would have made too, but ultimately the wrong bet and accountability is needed. He seems to be the fist person to throw that word out there, it goes for him too.

He did make some good moves to add supporting parts and I generally like most of what he has done.
You can argue those players have let him down more than he has let the organization down, but it is what it is.

His bet on the top players of this team hasn't worked and he shouldn't be the guy to make the next big bet.

[Toonage]

^^ No, I think I'm screwing up 3rd and 4th for 2nds. Thinking of guys like Forbort & Gustafsson so I apologize for that. Just not a fan of the picks heading out for nothing. Not a fan of spending on players when the team isn't in the spot he thinks they are. Just frustrated that after 7 years they have nothing to show for it.

[Da_Chief]

How are some still defending the GM?

He's had no playoff success, multiple coaching hires and fires, multiple misses at acquiring a goalie, no #1 center, wasted Gio's best years and the currently constructed the team that is out of the playoffs and likely gets worked if they sneak in.

All that with being a cap team.

Who cares what pick he got for trading Hudler or Glencross etc years ago...Commending him for how he handled the Peters situation? He hired the guy without doing a proper check. Its not like he was left all alone to deal with this, the Flames PR, president, owner, NHL etc were all involved. He was the speaker of what he was being told to say.

He's had 2/3 of a decade to fix this thing and looks like a pile of crap. Theres no small victories, the point is to win and he hasn't done enough of it and the future doesnt seem very bright either.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Da_Chief

How are some still defending the GM?

He's had no playoff success, multiple coaching hires and fires, multiple misses at acquiring a goalie, no #1 center, wasted Gio's best years and the currently constructed the team that is out of the playoffs and likely gets worked if they sneak in.

All that with being a cap team.

Who cares what pick he got for trading Hudler or Glencross etc years ago...Commending him for how he handled the Peters situation? He hired the guy without doing a proper check. Its not like he was left all alone to deal with this, the Flames PR, president, owner, NHL etc were all involved. He was the speaker of what he was being told to say.

He's had 2/3 of a decade to fix this thing and looks like a pile of crap. Theres no small victories, the point is to win and he hasn't done enough of it and the future doesnt seem very bright either.

I don't think many are defending him now. Most of us realize he hasn't got the job done. He's 7 years in so it's not like he hasn't had ample time to build the team he inherited into a contender. The organization is in worse shape today than when he inherited it and to me that signifies a GM that failed. He's simply failed to deal with the Monahan/Gaudreau combination and will probably be in a position of weakness with Gaudreau selling low and is boxed in a corner with Tkachuk who's only a guaranteed asset for two more seasons before free agency. With no elite players in the pipeline this roster is in a downward trajectory and we all know how ownership hates rebuilds so it's kind of a mess where he's going to have to sell the owners that he can retool and keep the team competitive which we all knows leads to perpetual mediocrity. We are heading into that Flames 2009-2014 era of being just good enough to finish 9/10th in the conference.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Toonage

^^ No, I think I'm screwing up 3rd and 4th for 2nds. Thinking of guys like Forbort & Gustafsson so I apologize for that. Just not a fan of the picks heading out for nothing. Not a fan of spending on players when the team isn't in the spot he thinks they are. Just frustrated that after 7 years they have nothing to show for it.

Sure, I can see that trading mid round picks for established NHLer’s on a rental situation might be questionable, but let’s recall the circumstances. When Forbort and Gustavson were brought in Giordano and Hamonic were hurt. Valamaki too.

I don’t know this first hand but based on what we have seen, and what we’ve heard, this ownership group expects to make the playoffs. If your employer sets a standard for you to hit, you do it. Or at the very least, you try. Treliving did what he had to do to secure their spot.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I don't think many are defending him now. Most of us realize he hasn't got the job done. He's 7 years in so it's not like he hasn't had ample time to build the team he inherited into a contender. The organization is in worse shape today than when he inherited it and to me that signifies a GM that failed. He's simply failed to deal with the Monahan/Gaudreau combination and will probably be in a position of weakness with Gaudreau selling low and is boxed in a corner with Tkachuk who's only a guaranteed asset for two more seasons before free agency. With no elite players in the pipeline this roster is in a downward trajectory and we all know how ownership hates rebuilds so it's kind of a mess where he's going to have to sell the owners that he can retool and keep the team competitive which we all knows leads to perpetual mediocrity. We are heading into that Flames 2009-2014 era of being just good enough to finish 9/10th in the conference.

I can both defend him in general but also recognize that this is a results league and that he hasn't accomplished much winning, especially in the post-season. A lot has to do with draft position, market, team location, luck, some players not panning out like everyone thought and a few errors thrown in. I'm not convinced he's made more mistakes than other GMs. Every GM has a lifespan - longer than coaches but a lifespan all the same with a few obvious exceptions. Sutter got 8 years. Guys with more success have gotten fired. So Treliving can be too. Only 8 GMs have been in place longer.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Da_Chief

How are some still defending the GM?

He's had no playoff success, multiple coaching hires and fires, multiple misses at acquiring a goalie, no #1 center, wasted Gio's best years and the currently constructed the team that is out of the playoffs and likely gets worked if they sneak in.

All that with being a cap team.

Who cares what pick he got for trading Hudler or Glencross etc years ago...Commending him for how he handled the Peters situation? He hired the guy without doing a proper check. Its not like he was left all alone to deal with this, the Flames PR, president, owner, NHL etc were all involved. He was the speaker of what he was being told to say.

He's had 2/3 of a decade to fix this thing and looks like a pile of crap. Theres no small victories, the point is to win and he hasn't done enough of it and the future doesnt seem very bright either.

Okay, a list of low hanging fruit type complaints. What’s your strategy to improve? How much are you willing to bet any of it comes to fruition? Does this new GM come with a No1C?

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Da_Chief

How are some still defending the GM?

He's had no playoff success, multiple coaching hires and fires, multiple misses at acquiring a goalie, no #1 center, wasted Gio's best years and the currently constructed the team that is out of the playoffs and likely gets worked if they sneak in.

All that with being a cap team.

Who cares what pick he got for trading Hudler or Glencross etc years ago...Commending him for how he handled the Peters situation? He hired the guy without doing a proper check. Its not like he was left all alone to deal with this, the Flames PR, president, owner, NHL etc were all involved. He was the speaker of what he was being told to say.

He's had 2/3 of a decade to fix this thing and looks like a pile of crap. Theres no small victories, the point is to win and he hasn't done enough of it and the future doesnt seem very bright either.

Lot of truth in this.

Brad Treliving is a very likable GM and he’s done a lot of good things, but his vision has ultimately been a failure.

But he’s had 7 years to take this team full of promise, full of solid foundational pieces and take them to the next level. That has not happened and it appears the window is quickly closing and his team has actually regressed, not improved.

Maybe he attached himself to the wrong core or maybe he didn’t build the core enough, traded too many picks for quick fixes that didn’t pan out, made a lot of bad UFA signings that are still a hinderance on the cap, took too long to find the right goaltender, too many coaches and ultimately too many holes to fix at this point.

There’s probably a lot of conclusions that can be drawn, but regardless of what conclusion you come to, the fact is, this organization has been in a race to the finish line for 7 years and we’re still stuck in roughly the same spot as we were before. We’re just spinning our tires in the mud at this point. Treliving has tried everything he can to get us out of the mud, but other teams behind are quickly passing us by. We need a new driver. Someone who can recognize what this team really needs instead of selecting the Joakim Nordstroms, Josh Leivos, Dominic Simons, Brett Ritchies of the NHL world.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Lot of truth in this.

Brad Treliving is a very likable GM and he’s done a lot of good things, but his vision has ultimately been a failure.

But he’s had 7 years to take this team full of promise, full of solid foundational pieces and take them to the next level. That has not happened and it appears the window is quickly closing and his team has actually regressed, not improved.

Maybe he attached himself to the wrong core or maybe he didn’t build the core enough, traded too many picks for quick fixes that didn’t pan out, made a lot of bad UFA signings that are still a hinderance on the cap, took too long to find the right goaltender, too many coaches and ultimately too many holes to fix at this point.

There’s probably a lot of conclusions that can be drawn, but regardless of what conclusion you come to, the fact is, this organization has been in a race to the finish line for 7 years and we’re still stuck in roughly the same spot as we were before. We’re just spinning our tires in the mud at this point. Treliving has tried everything he can to get us out of the mud, but other teams behind are quickly passing us by. We need a new driver. Someone who can recognize what this team really needs instead of selecting the Joakim Nordstroms, Josh Leivos, Dominic Simons, Brett Ritchies Chris Tanevs and Jakob Markstrom’s of the NHL world.

Fixed.

Complaining about league min contracts. Hilarious. Is Treliving the only GM out there doing this?

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Fixed.

Complaining about league min contracts. Hilarious. Is Treliving the only GM out there doing this?

The 4 forwards I listed just speaks to how management after 7 years still don’t anything about their core players. Johnny Gaudreau’s sweetheart 6 year contract will be over by next season and the best they could come up with is Josh Leivo, Dominic Simon, Joakim Nordstrom and Brett Ritchie who have been utter failures here. Their vision of 3 strong pairs has been the biggest reason why this season has been a disaster. Another coaching fire, lowest scoring 5 on 5 team in the division (last I checked). I mean I figured after the James Neal and Troy Brouwer debacles that they’d figure out what works and doesn’t work, but here we are again, facing the inevitable closure of our once promising window.

Sure Markstrom and Tanev have worked out well. But if they didn’t then Brad Treliving would’ve been fired a long time ago because this team would be sitting below Ottawa in the standings. It’s about the whole picture here, the small number of players I initially listed speak to the bigger story of failure here and I’m not sure I trust the same eyes and the same minds to fix what they broke in the first place.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

The 4 forwards I listed just speaks to how management after 7 years still don’t anything about their core players. Johnny Gaudreau’s sweetheart 6 year contract will be over by next season and the best they could come up with is Josh Leivo, Dominic Simon, Joakim Nordstrom and Brett Ritchie who have been utter failures here. Their vision of 3 strong pairs has been the biggest reason why this season has been a disaster. Another coaching fire, lowest scoring 5 on 5 team in the division (last I checked). I mean I figured after the James Neal and Troy Brouwer debacles that they’d figure out what works and doesn’t work, but here we are again, facing the inevitable closure of our once promising window.

Sure Markstrom and Tanev have worked out well. But if they didn’t then Brad Treliving would’ve been fired a long time ago because this team would be sitting below Ottawa in the standings. It’s about the whole picture here, the small number of players I initially listed speak to the bigger story of failure here and I’m not sure I trust the same eyes and the same minds to fix what they broke in the first place.

First of all, worth noting the sweetheart deal you reference was signed by this GM. Johnny’s best season was with a RW Treliving acquired.

What did BT break, exactly? And what fantasy scenario do you ascribe to that would have ‘fixed’ the team?

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

So the organization fires by promotion.

Elaine Benes did it in Seinfeld. Although it resulted in a revolt by the employees.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[OldDutch]

I am not sure if JG contract will be looked back as sweetheart deal, more likely fair.

Case in point, how many people who follow this team would give him a raise?

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by OldDutch

I am not sure if JG contract will be looked back as sweetheart deal, more likely fair.

Case in point, how many people who follow this team would give him a raise?

Good point, and agreed. JG and his team were obviously looking for more and a less shrewd GM likely would have given him the 8/year, or whatever, he was looking for.

It was well played by Treliving and he has until July 1st to trade or extend the player. If I had to bet, I would say JG will be moved.