[PGT] Flames lose 7-3 to Edmonton...

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

This is pretty poor logic.

Why do you think the Jets traded Laine (who scores goals) away for Dubois?

Why do you think Columbus took Laine?

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

This is pretty poor logic.

Why do you think the Jets traded Laine (who scores goals) away for Dubois?

This conversation confuses me

Well Laine did ask to be traded from Winnipeg

People value goals

And someone here is hoping that Monahan, who has scored more goals than MacKinnon could somehow be useful

Can’t wait for the game tonight

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Monahan really is a strange player and I have a tough time finding comparisons. This isn't me but the 960 guys mention frequently that Treliving has shopped him and interest has been generally low. In their words (Boomer and Pinder) normally a 25-30 goal NHL center is one of the most sought after assets a team can have in the NHL yet nobody wants him. I think that's a little simplistic but there is some merit there that the player passes the stats test with flying colors and really underwhelms in the eye test.

Esposito?

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Esposito?

Man I'm just not old enough to remember eye tests on Phil. Tim Kerr maybe? Monahan really is a tough one as you can't ignore his goal production. You just can't but he really does underwhelm when you just watch him.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Monahan really is a strange player and I have a tough time finding comparisons. This isn't me but the 960 guys mention frequently that Treliving has shopped him and interest has been generally low. In their words (Boomer and Pinder) normally a 25-30 goal NHL center is one of the most sought after assets a team can have in the NHL yet nobody wants him. I think that's a little simplistic but there is some merit there that the player passes the stats test with flying colors and really underwhelms in the eye test.

Jeff Carter is the best comparison.

Not great defensively, more of a goal scoring center than a playmaking center, very similar numbers up to this point of their careers.

Monahan now:

GP: 569
Goals: 200
Assists: 230
Points: 431
Hits: 312

GPG: 0.35
PPG: 0.76

Carter when he was traded to LA:

GP: 500
Goals: 196
Assists: 172
Points: 368
Hits: 239

GPG: 0.39
PPG: 0.74

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

This is pretty poor logic.

Why do you think the Jets traded Laine (who scores goals) away for Dubois?

Cause he made it patently clear he didnt want to be in Winnipeg long term.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Cause he made it patently clear he didnt want to be in Winnipeg long term.

And because a Dubois trade was sitting right there. If that situation didn’t exist, searching for a trade would have been a lot harder.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by gt4flames

Its kind of shocking to think at how undervalued Monahan is on this board. He has the most goals of anyone from his draft class or the previous 3, and is in the top 5 for the 3 following those. Is everyone expecting him to be a Getzlaf? Hall Of fame Centers show up on the high end, every 3 drafts.

The dude scores goals, what more do you want from him? ...Is he going to beat the wheels of you like Mcdavid or Mackinnon? No. Is he going to wine faceoffs, yes. Is he going to be a plus player? Yes. No he is not a bonafied #1 like Eichel, or Stamkos, or Getzlaf....

..What he is, is pretty ####in good and we all need to remember that sometimes.

It has nothing to do with undervalued/overvalued.
It has everything to do with building a team that can compete with the best and in the playoffs.

You can't just look at a player in isolation of their career stats and say all is well (while completely ignoring recent form too).

The team has to look at their makeup as a whole and address what needs to happen to get better.
That might include moving Monahan to a different position, it may include trading him or it may not include either.

You have an emotional connection to the player and I understand that as a fan, but management needs to make hard decisions without that emotional attachment.

[howard_the_duck]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Jeff Carter is the best comparison.

Not great defensively, more of a goal scoring center than a playmaking center, very similar numbers up to this point of their careers.

Monahan now:

GP: 569
Goals: 200
Assists: 230
Points: 431
Hits: 312

GPG: 0.35
PPG: 0.76

Carter when he was traded to LA:

GP: 500
Goals: 196
Assists: 172
Points: 368
Hits: 239

GPG: 0.39
PPG: 0.74

Numbers for sure and tendency to shoot first. But Carter was a great skater that drove possession. At his best, a much better player than Monahan IMO.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I completely disagree that the line scored more off the rush, which you have asserted several times. They’ve always been more of a cycle low - get the puck to the slot line when they’ve been successful. They got their share of rush goals, and they had more with Lindholm on the line, but that wasn’t the bread and butter. And yes, Johnny, especially early on, was getting better looks. Lately he’s been doing almost nothing, so that skews the stats in a short season.

Monahan, despite the coverage, has gotten a few close in shots each game, because they keep looking for that pass. They need a better couple options - a Lindholm, Hudler, or even Wideman option.

BTW, if you’re hoping to rely on rush goals, you are going to be disappointed. Hardly any teams rely on rushing because those goals are far less predominant. And it’s not Sutter’s game.

You don’t have to believe what I say. But the answer is available to you via AC’s incredible highlights.

2018-19 at even strength was mostly rush scoring with a significant portion of goals created off the forecheck. 2017-18 was almost exclusively rush scoring from what I recall. Gaudreau and Monahan are at their best in transition playing run & gun when defenses aren’t set. When defenses are set, it’s more difficult for these 2 to score because it’s easier to defend the very predictable objective of Gaudreau-pass & Monahan-shoot.

And lastly, yes, I have been disappointed with that line. They have an extreme reliance on rush scoring and without it their even strength scoring has dried up significantly this year despite the easier matchups this season, they cannot seem to figure out another way to produce outside of the powerplay.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Monahan really is a strange player and I have a tough time finding comparisons. This isn't me but the 960 guys mention frequently that Treliving has shopped him and interest has been generally low. In their words (Boomer and Pinder) normally a 25-30 goal NHL center is one of the most sought after assets a team can have in the NHL yet nobody wants him. I think that's a little simplistic but there is some merit there that the player passes the stats test with flying colors and really underwhelms in the eye test.

well that isn't true...Flames don't want to give him away, why would they?

[TheScorpion]

I wouldn't be surprised if the return in a Monahan trade looks somewhat similar to the deal that sent Jeff Skinner to Buffalo. And that was a brutal trade.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Monahan really is a strange player and I have a tough time finding comparisons. This isn't me but the 960 guys mention frequently that Treliving has shopped him and interest has been generally low. In their words (Boomer and Pinder) normally a 25-30 goal NHL center is one of the most sought after assets a team can have in the NHL yet nobody wants him. I think that's a little simplistic but there is some merit there that the player passes the stats test with flying colors and really underwhelms in the eye test.

That’s how I’ve seen it for years. His stats look great, but when you watch him, he’s barely noticeable which is fine for a #6 defensemen, but not ok for #1 center.

I personally would’ve welcomed the Josh Anderson for Monahan trade that was speculated in the offseason. He’s been a nice fit for Montreal and the elements he brings is something this team could use. Alas, Bergevin preferred the Max Domi deal better, so it is what it is.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by howard_the_duck

Numbers for sure and tendency to shoot first. But Carter was a great skater that drove possession. At his best, a much better player than Monahan IMO.

He's a better skater but I'm not sure he was really a great possession driver either.

Looking at the last three seasons in Philly prior to the trades to Columbus and then LA here are Carter's Possession Numbers.

Corsi For%: 49.9%
xGF%: 51.6%
GF%: 57.3%

On Ice Shooting: 9.05%
On Ice Save: .930

And here are Monahan's stats the last three seasons prior to this one:

Corsi For%: 52.8%
xGF%: 51.3%
GF%: 51.6%

On Ice Shooting: 9.24%
On Ice Save: .909

Overall the biggest difference is Carter is a better skater. But in terms of individual stats, advanced metrics, etc they are very similar.

I guess the argument is maybe Carter was the driver in Philly vs Gaudreau being the driver here but honestly that's tough to break apart.

Looking back for the Flyers and for Carter it was:

08-09: Lupul-Carter-Hartnell
09-10: Briere - Carter - Hartnell
10-11: ???? - Carter - Giroux

So not like Carter didn't have some decent linemates too. Briere was great at times in Philly, and they also had Richards, Gagne, Hartnell, Giroux, Pronger etc.

So Carter wasn't dragging a team around by himself either.

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

That’s how I’ve seen it for years. His stats look great, but when you watch him, he’s barely noticeable which is fine for a #6 defensemen, but not ok for #1 center.

I personally would’ve welcomed the Josh Anderson for Monahan trade that was speculated in the offseason. He’s been a nice fit for Montreal and the elements he brings is something this team could use. Alas, Bergevin preferred the Max Domi deal better, so it is what it is.

Trading Monahan 1 for 1 for Josh Anderson would have been a bad trade. Like Phaneuf trade bad.

If you add up Josh Anderson's last three seasons he has 67 points in 134 games. He's also not that great defensively according to most advanced stats. That's pretty much Monahan's normal point production over 82 games, let along over 2.5 seasons worth of games.

Even this year Monahan has 20 points in 28 games (11 at 5v5) and we are ready to run him out of town, Anderson has 16 in 26 (13 at 5v5) yet it's a great season.

Plus Anderson is terribly inconsistent when it comes to offensive production, he was in Columbus and is in Montreal now. After a hot start he has 2 goals, and 5 points in his last 13 games. If we traded Monahan for him we'd be running him out of town right now and saying that his 7 year $5.5M per season contract was an albatross.

[Classic_Sniper]

Seems to be a lot of Jeff Carter talk here, but the King’s Jeff Carter isn’t Jeff Carter without Anze Kopitar and that’s the Flames real problem. Pretty easy for Jeff Carter to follow up Anze Kopitar after he just spent his entire shift in the offensive zone. That’s what an elite #1 center like Kopitar can do, he sets the tone of the next shift and shift after that and so on and so forth. If it was me, I would certainly love to jump onto the ice with momentum or with a tired line caught out late.

The Flames do no not currently have an Anze Kopitar here to make Sean Monahan’s life easier.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Trading Monahan 1 for 1 for Josh Anderson would have been a bad trade. Like Phaneuf trade bad.

If you add up Josh Anderson's last three seasons he has 67 points in 134 games. He's also not that great defensively according to most advanced stats. That's pretty much Monahan's normal point production over 82 games, let along over 2.5 seasons worth of games.

Even this year Monahan has 20 points in 28 games (11 at 5v5) and we are ready to run him out of town, Anderson has 16 in 26 (13 at 5v5) yet it's a great season.

Plus Anderson is terribly inconsistent when it comes to offensive production, he was in Columbus and is in Montreal now. After a hot start he has 2 goals, and 5 points in his last 13 games. If we traded Monahan for him we'd be running him out of town right now and saying that his 7 year $5.5M per season contract was an albatross.

I don’t think it was a one for one and that’s partly why I believe the trade fell apart. Treliving was asking for a lot, like one of their young stud goaltenders and a defenseman + Josh Anderson. That would’ve been a fine trade.

I’m not saying Josh Anderson is without flaws, but the Flames’ right shot, right wing depth is so bad that Anderson’s presence alone would be beneficial. I’m also a big Derek Ryan fan so I have no problem playing Doc as the #3 pivot.

Lastly, regarding Josh Anderson’s production. He doesn’t play a ton of minutes; he almost straddles between 3rd line minutes and 2nd line minutes, so his production is actually pretty good. It’s mostly even strength points to boot, so that’s huge.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

You don’t have to believe what I say. But the answer is available to you via AC’s incredible highlights.

2018-19 at even strength was mostly rush scoring with a significant portion of goals created off the forecheck. 2017-18 was almost exclusively rush scoring from what I recall. Gaudreau and Monahan are at their best in transition playing run & gun when defenses aren’t set. When defenses are set, it’s more difficult for these 2 to score because it’s easier to defend the very predictable objective of Gaudreau-pass & Monahan-shoot.

And lastly, yes, I have been disappointed with that line. They have an extreme reliance on rush scoring and without it their even strength scoring has dried up significantly this year despite the easier matchups this season, they cannot seem to figure out another way to produce outside of the powerplay.

Of course the highlights are rush goals. Those kind of goals are highlights. But Monahan is set in the slot and takes a pass for most of his goals.

I agree that aren’t skating as well though and it makes them easy to defend. It’s not just Monahan’s fault though. There is Johnny’s tendency to paint himself into a corner and the fact there’s no third option.

[Tsawwassen]

Post game links
http://sportsstats.cbc.ca/hockey/nhl...ore134050.html
https://scores.nbcsports.com/nhl/rec...s=6&final=true