[PGT] Flames lose 7-3 to Edmonton...

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Let's just say I'm not very inclined to care about the opinions of people who suggest Tkachuk, at the age of 23, has already peaked and is "now on the decline" or that Monahan isn't an NHL-calibre center.

Tkachuk in the midst a bad half-season = an acceptable opinion.
Monahan not a play-driving center = an acceptable opinion.

Tkachuk has already peaked

Its perfectly reasonable to have the opinion that Tkachuk may have peaked offensively already.

Its not super uncommon for high picks, and especially sons of former NHlers to peak early.

Paul Stastny for example had his best seasons offensively from ages 20-23.
Zack Parise hit his peak in his 4th season.
Max Domi's best season so far was his 4th and has backslid since.
Colin Wilson hit his peak in season 3.
Gagner in his rookie season.
Tyler Arnason had 55 points in his second season.

Seems like most sons of former NHLers peak early. The exception is Alex Steen who had his best offensive season at age 29.

Of course just because someone has peaked offensively doesn't mean they are on the decline. Stastny for example maintained his play into his 30s.

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

I don’t think I buy into the shooting percentage thing at all. I mean, does it look like he’s on the cusp of exploding at any given moment? Is he getting chances every night that are just hitting the post or grazing the crossbar which will eventually go in for him? Or does it look more like on any given night he’s not noticeable and not dangerous at all? I think it’s more the latter at this point.

That’s Sean Monahan unfortunately, he’s sort of a one trick pony as I just said. He scores in close and can elevate in tight where he usually doesn’t have the puck on his stick for more then a second.

He’s not the type of goal scorer who can go end to end, or wrap it around from behind the net, or steal a puck and walk in on a breakaway or one time it from out of nowhere or wire it from the flank off the half-boards. Where talking about a very limited number of ways Monahan can score goals here and the opposition is finding ways to limit those opportunities on most nights.

Now maybe Treliving makes a trade for a RW who can solve this problem and that guy can distribute the puck or create space to open things up for Gaudreau to find Monahan, but it doesn’t seem like that’s coming anytime soon.

^ I think that's taking things a bit too far. Monahan is still getting a good volume of dangerous shots. Per NST, he ranks fifth on the Flames with an average of 0.73 expected goals/60 at even strength.

Monahan's ability to shoot the puck from dangerous areas of the ice is still extremely valuable. I just think he needs to be used in a way that enables him to play more of a north-south game and get a jump up the wall on breakouts. It's really hard for the Flames to create separation on the rush if Monahan doesn't have a bit of a head-start. But him being relied on to play the defensive role of a centre means he's always going to have the most ground to cover.

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

Its perfectly reasonable to have the opinion that Tkachuk may have peaked offensively already.

Its not super uncommon for high picks, and especially sons of former NHlers to peak early.

Paul Stastny for example had his best seasons offensively from ages 20-23.
Zack Parise hit his peak in his 4th season.
Max Domi's best season so far was his 4th and has backslid since.
Colin Wilson hit his peak in season 3.
Gagner in his rookie season.
Tyler Arnason had 55 points in his second season.

Seems like most sons of former NHLers peak early. The exception is Alex Steen who had his best offensive season at age 29.

Of course just because someone has peaked offensively doesn't mean they are on the decline. Stastny for example maintained his play into his 30s.

Is that really all your argument has to go on? That Matthew Tkachuk is the son of a former NHLer? That doesn't hold any merit at all.

Brett Hull was the son of an NHLer. He scored 700 goals.

[Ziggy Lidstrom]

I really like the comment about line mate sensitivity with the sometimes kinda dynamic duo of monoman, Johnny the boy wonder. Why were ferland lindy and hurler so successful with these two?

Hudler was a top six guy going back to Detroit who always had high end skill but not the size nor complete game to be an all star. But what was his scouting report? Good stick handling and good offensive instincts? He could score as Well with an above average shot. Was it luck? Was it a confluence? How about mike?

Ferland was a tough guy with a great shot a decent 200 ft game and he was a guy who nobody wanted to fight. He was a big body but could move straight line decently and had great board battle instincts. Lindy?

He was a bit like hudler but more responsible defensively. Lindy has good wheels, a good motor, a good 200 ft game and good puck skills. He’s not an intimidating player but he plays with a quiet edge. He is a dependable centre option. Put him with jonohan flanking as wingers?

Is being engaged an intangible quality? I think so. I think it’s difficult to cultivate once lost. And that’s where I think this duo is. They have lost a lot of confidence. The team has and that’s why sutter is here. Hopefully this guy can correct the self image the individuals on the team are fostering. It’s seems it’s as if it were one of emasculation due to domination? Colorado and now Edmonton seem to have the confidence to dominate this group. Finding confidence at that level is why certain guys go into their respective halls of fame. Not all can have it and shouldn’t. Just sucks when it’s your team logo being humiliated by a rival team.

Regarding tachuck it’s evident his skating is holding him back. He labours more than lucic out there. His assist was nice to see. That’s the power forward I thought we’d see more often instead of his between the leg instincts. That mentality is hurting his game. Perhaps he’s in need of a different center man? I could see a change in lindy lining up at center with jonohan. Then backlund slides to number two with a reuniting of him and Matty with dube? The lucic Benny and doc line could be the next up. And put Ritchie as a fourth line energy type. With a couple kids from the farm? Even give mr froese another look?

I think matty is just really playing differently after the Toronto game. Something happened with the room after that outburst and it probably is still lingering like a putrid stink in the air.

Imagine Brady with jonohan? I like his speed and physicality. He isn’t flashy but really effective. Perhaps Matty can take a page from his little bros play book.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Actually your point stands.

I looked at the average age of the playoff roster sorted by total ice time. (lots of caveats in that with injuries etc forcing players out and replacement guys in)

18 players - 26.4 average age

This season

18 players - 27.0 average age

It’s all relative. Darryl and I are both about 17 years older now

[btimbit]

I['m sorry I let you all down. I'll never make a [GT] again

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

Its perfectly reasonable to have the opinion that Tkachuk may have peaked offensively already.

Its not super uncommon for high picks, and especially sons of former NHlers to peak early.

Paul Stastny for example had his best seasons offensively from ages 20-23.
Zack Parise hit his peak in his 4th season.
Max Domi's best season so far was his 4th and has backslid since.
Colin Wilson hit his peak in season 3.
Gagner in his rookie season.
Tyler Arnason had 55 points in his second season.

Seems like most sons of former NHLers peak early. The exception is Alex Steen who had his best offensive season at age 29.

Of course just because someone has peaked offensively doesn't mean they are on the decline. Stastny for example maintained his play into his 30s.

You would like that, wouldn't you.

[TheScorpion]

I just wanted to clarify that I do like Sean Monahan a lot and I want nothing more than to see him succeed again as he has in the past. I think he has a pretty good chance of becoming a very useful player if his deployment is altered only slightly.

Right now, I think the Flames have two better options to play at centre in the top-six (Lindholm and Backlund) and Monahan is not suited to a bottom-six role. That, coupled with his underwhelming results at centre away from Gaudreau, prompted me to start thinking about how he could thrive if counted upon to cover less ground and get a jump on breakouts.

It's not because of any bias against Monahan or anything. I think he is, without a doubt, a top-six forward in the NHL. But I don't think the centre position plays ideally to his strengths and attributes.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

^ I think that's taking things a bit too far. Monahan is still getting a good volume of dangerous shots. Per NST, he ranks fifth on the Flames with an average of 0.73 expected goals/60 at even strength.

Monahan's ability to shoot the puck from dangerous areas of the ice is still extremely valuable. I just think he needs to be used in a way that enables him to play more of a north-south game and get a jump up the wall on breakouts. It's really hard for the Flames to create separation on the rush if Monahan doesn't have a bit of a head-start. But him being relied on to play the defensive role of a centre means he's always going to have the most ground to cover.

I don’t see it to be honest. I see Monahan getting off some dangerous shots from time to time, but nothing screams that he’s breaking out from some kind of funk. Like, we could fast forward 5 games from now and if someone told me Monahan scored 0 goals during that time, I wouldn’t be surprised.

Also, the whole defensive role stuff is so oversold. It’s not like he’s being tasked to shut down the McDavids or Matthews of the division here, he’s often going up against much worser competition and getting massive offensive zone starts here and it’s not helping.

What Monahan really needs are linemates that can exit the defensive zone quickly and efficiently, draw attention and create chaos so he can get lost in coverage and unleash his shot. That would probably fix his even strength goal scoring woes. But that’s a big ask because I don’t even know what’s out there on the market right now.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Ziggy Lidstrom

I really like the comment about line mate sensitivity with the sometimes kinda dynamic duo of monoman, Johnny the boy wonder. Why were ferland lindy and hurler so successful with these two?

This is up to the pro scouts of this organization to figure out. They watch the tapes, they see the practices, they’re right over top watching the games. It’s actually kind of remarkable to me that after 7 years of watching their franchise duo stumble, bumble or succeed, that they still don’t seem to know anything about these 2 players at all.

Like I’m shocked that with all the time on their hand and all the resources that are available to them, they somehow targeted Dominic Simon, Josh Leivo and Brett Ritchie as the missing pieces to the Gaudreau-Monahan puzzle. After 7 years.....and with 1 year remaining on #13’s contract, they’re no further ahead then they were 7 years ago. It’s baffling.

And now Tkachuk, this organization has somehow broke the bond this fanbase once had with their future captain Matthew Tkachuk. As Matty said in an interview earlier this year, “they use to love me.” And now look, trade proposals for him, threads on how he’s declined. Might as well throw Gio into this conversation too. Apparently he’s just a dinosaur now who will be exposed at the draft to Seattle. The man just uprooted his family from Toronto and moved his life to Calgary. Like, what the hell is this organization doing? Do they know anything about their players? What they can and can’t do? Their limitations? Their strengths? Obviously the coaching search took long enough.

Man...I know I’m often critical about the braintrust of this organization. But seeing the endless string of coaches, the important names that are being trudged through the mud these days, the constant blow outs, it’s tough being a fan of this team, it really is. It doesn’t help that the future of all the other Canadian franchises seem to be on an upward trend while we’re just constantly spinning our tires in the mud.

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Is that really all your argument has to go on? That Matthew Tkachuk is the son of a former NHLer? That doesn't hold any merit at all.

Brett Hull was the son of an NHLer. He scored 700 goals.

Just because someone peaks early doesn't mean they decline early.

Guys like Yzerman and Sakic peaked quickly and then maintained that level for 20 years.

NHL forwards in general more often than not hit their max offensive output by season 4-5.

Son's of former NHLers generally get access to superior coaching and training through their childhood. I think that is why you tend to not see many late blooming second generation players.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

I don’t see it to be honest. I see Monahan getting off some dangerous shots from time to time, but nothing screams that he’s breaking out from some kind of funk. Like, we could fast forward 5 games from now and if someone told me Monahan scored 0 goals during that time, I wouldn’t be surprised.

Also, the whole defensive role stuff is so oversold. It’s not like he’s being tasked to shut down the McDavids or Matthews of the division here, he’s often going up against much worser competition and getting massive offensive zone starts here and it’s not helping.

What Monahan really needs are linemates that can exit the defensive zone quickly and efficiently, draw attention and create chaos so he can get lost in coverage and unleash his shot. That would probably fix his even strength goal scoring woes. But that’s a big ask because I don’t even know what’s out there on the market right now.

The stats say Sutter is giving him D zone starts and yes, playing him against stiff competition.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The stats say Sutter is giving him D zone starts and yes, playing him against stiff competition.

Right, but how does that explain Monahan’s lack of production prior to the Darryl Sutter’s arrival then? Sure, I can see him pushing and shoving more and he appears more engaged in one on one battles, but how does that hurt him offensively? Did he forget how to shoot the puck?

His line is playing against lesser lines these days and they’ve been getting offensive high ground for most of this season, yet he’s on pace to score the fewest goals of any year he’s played in the NHL (pace).

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Right, but how does that explain Monahan’s lack of production prior to the Darryl Sutter’s arrival then? Sure, I can see him pushing and shoving more and he appears more engaged in one on one battles, but how does that hurt him offensively? Did he forget how to shoot the puck?

His line is playing against lesser lines these days and they’ve been getting offensive high ground for most of this season, yet he’s on pace to score the fewest goals of any year he’s played in the NHL (pace).

I said what I thought earlier. The opposition is keying on preventing the pass from the left side into the slot. He’s getting double coverage and this has in fact allowed Johnny to have more open looks himself. Monahan is either not getting good passes to him or his shots are getting deflected. Parsley it’s because he’s the only option - no way is Gaudreau passing to Ritchie (or Simon or Bennett).

[Sainters7]

Originally Posted by N-E-B

They’ve been the better team for a while now outside of 2019.

Eh, I wouldn't go that far. This year, sure. And yeah 2017. In 2018 we both were no good, but CGY still finished higher in the standings and split the season series. And 2020 EDM only finished 2 pts up and CGY won 3 of 4 vs Oilers last year. EDM was a more dynamic group, but they looked soft & inexperienced in the playoffs. We (somehow) appeared as the more solid, battle-tested group with a higher compete level come playoff time. And of course more success in the end (which isn't saying much).

I still say CGY was overall better 2018-20, not by much in 18 & 20, but I give them the edge in the end. Yeah feels like it's now swung the Oilers way this year, but after 6 years of McDavid, why the heck has it even taken this long?

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

I just wanted to clarify that I do like Sean Monahan a lot and I want nothing more than to see him succeed again as he has in the past. I think he has a pretty good chance of becoming a very useful player if his deployment is altered only slightly.

Right now, I think the Flames have two better options to play at centre in the top-six (Lindholm and Backlund) and Monahan is not suited to a bottom-six role. That, coupled with his underwhelming results at centre away from Gaudreau, prompted me to start thinking about how he could thrive if counted upon to cover less ground and get a jump on breakouts.

It's not because of any bias against Monahan or anything. I think he is, without a doubt, a top-six forward in the NHL. But I don't think the centre position plays ideally to his strengths and attributes.

I feel this way too and have also stated this year that he has become our 3rd best centre.

I think he's our best trade asset to bring back a quality RW so would like to see him shopped. But if he can become that RW himself, that would be fine too.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I said what I thought earlier. The opposition is keying on preventing the pass from the left side into the slot. He’s getting double coverage and this has in fact allowed Johnny to have more open looks himself. Monahan is either not getting good passes to him or his shots are getting deflected. Parsley it’s because he’s the only option - no way is Gaudreau passing to Ritchie (or Simon or Bennett).

Wait, I'm confused. Are you saying that Johnny Gaudreau is having more open looks? Because Gaudreau is averaging considerably less shots on goal than last year, basically one entire shot less per game. Actually, he's on pace to average the fewest shots on goal per game since he joined the league. Monahan from the looks of it is averaging about the same as last year. I'm sure teams are defending the slot better because that's usually where Monahan is most dangerous, but this line's biggest problem is that they're not dangerous on the rush right now and that's been the bread and butter of #13 and #23 from day 1.

[gt4flames]

Its kind of shocking to think at how undervalued Monahan is on this board. He has the most goals of anyone from his draft class or the previous 3, and is in the top 5 for the 3 following those. Is everyone expecting him to be a Getzlaf? Hall Of fame Centers show up on the high end, every 3 drafts.

The dude scores goals, what more do you want from him? ...Is he going to beat the wheels of you like Mcdavid or Mackinnon? No. Is he going to wine faceoffs, yes. Is he going to be a plus player? Yes. No he is not a bonafied #1 like Eichel, or Stamkos, or Getzlaf....

..What he is, is pretty ####in good and we all need to remember that sometimes.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Wait, I'm confused. Are you saying that Johnny Gaudreau is having more open looks? Because Gaudreau is averaging considerably less shots on goal than last year, basically one entire shot less per game. Actually, he's on pace to average the fewest shots on goal per game since he joined the league. Monahan from the looks of it is averaging about the same as last year. I'm sure teams are defending the slot better because that's usually where Monahan is most dangerous, but this line's biggest problem is that they're not dangerous on the rush right now and that's been the bread and butter of #13 and #23 from day 1.

I completely disagree that the line scored more off the rush, which you have asserted several times. They’ve always been more of a cycle low - get the puck to the slot line when they’ve been successful. They got their share of rush goals, and they had more with Lindholm on the line, but that wasn’t the bread and butter. And yes, Johnny, especially early on, was getting better looks. Lately he’s been doing almost nothing, so that skews the stats in a short season.

Monahan, despite the coverage, has gotten a few close in shots each game, because they keep looking for that pass. They need a better couple options - a Lindholm, Hudler, or even Wideman option.

BTW, if you’re hoping to rely on rush goals, you are going to be disappointed. Hardly any teams rely on rushing because those goals are far less predominant. And it’s not Sutter’s game.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by gt4flames

Its kind of shocking to think at how undervalued Monahan is on this board. He has the most goals of anyone from his draft class or the previous 3, and is in the top 5 for the 3 following those. Is everyone expecting him to be a Getzlaf? Hall Of fame Centers show up on the high end, every 3 drafts.

The dude scores goals, what more do you want from him? ...Is he going to beat the wheels of you like Mcdavid or Mackinnon? No. Is he going to wine faceoffs, yes. Is he going to be a plus player? Yes. No he is not a bonafied #1 like Eichel, or Stamkos, or Getzlaf....

..What he is, is pretty ####in good and we all need to remember that sometimes.

Monahan really is a strange player and I have a tough time finding comparisons. This isn't me but the 960 guys mention frequently that Treliving has shopped him and interest has been generally low. In their words (Boomer and Pinder) normally a 25-30 goal NHL center is one of the most sought after assets a team can have in the NHL yet nobody wants him. I think that's a little simplistic but there is some merit there that the player passes the stats test with flying colors and really underwhelms in the eye test.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by gt4flames

The dude scores goals, what more do you want from him?

This is pretty poor logic.

Why do you think the Jets traded Laine (who scores goals) away for Dubois?