Flames fire Geoff Ward, hire Darryl Sutter, signs 3 year deal

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Kipper was a shell and that was an aging Cammaleri, Tanguay and Iginla. There was no core at that point, just old vets to trade away for the rebuild.

Iginla scored 30 goals the next year for Boston, and then 29 and 22 for Colorado. Cami was 30 and scored 27 goals a couple years later for the devils. Tanguay was 32 and scored 22 for Colorado 2 years later.

Hudler was 28, Stempniak 29, Glencross 29, Jaybo 28, Wideman 29, etc. All of these guys had years left.

I’m not talking big time success expectations. I’m talking less success than Greg Gilbert, in 01-02, who had Iginla, Conroy, 2/3 of Marc Savard and really no one else. Not even an old Kipper - he had Turek.

[chummer]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Goaltending didn’t get Hartley fired. Treliving is smart enough to see the stats, and he watched the tending all year.

Hartley got fired because: he wasn’t Treliving’s choice and was only extended because of the Jack Adams; the players hated him; and Corsi evened out from the previous year. And Hiller’s goaltending wasn’t as good (but Ramo hardly changed at all as cars as save% goes, and he still dropped games).

Here’s a question: How did Hartley get the 2nd worst winning percentage in Flames history with a team that had Iginla, Cammaleri, Tanguay, Stempniak, Hudler, Glencross, Wideman, Gio, Jaybo, Backlund, Brodie, and Kipper? Did he not motivate them?

This has been mentioned before and it was confirmed by a buddy of mine whose son worked with the Flames, Gaudreau and Monahan weren't going to re-sign if Hartley remained coach.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Goaltending didn’t get Hartley fired. Treliving is smart enough to see the stats, and he watched the tending all year.

Hartley got fired because: he wasn’t Treliving’s choice and was only extended because of the Jack Adams; the players hated him; and Corsi evened out from the previous year. And Hiller’s goaltending wasn’t as good (but Ramo hardly changed at all as cars as save% goes, and he still dropped games).

Here’s a question: How did Hartley get the 2nd worst winning percentage in Flames history with a team that had Iginla, Cammaleri, Tanguay, Stempniak, Hudler, Glencross, Wideman, Gio, Jaybo, Backlund, Brodie, and Kipper? Did he not motivate them?

This again? Anything else special happen Hartley’s last year? Hamilton sure hit the ground running, yes? How’d Ramo do from Dec through the knee blowout? How many times did the goalies let in 5+ in the 11 games right after Ramo got hurt? How about that Wideman?

I won’t repost my complete stroll down memory lane. Unless you bring it up again and force my hand.

Corsi was not good the previous year btw.

At least you agree that Hartley was turfed because he wasn’t Brad’s guy.

Hartley was a last ditch effort to either rally the core or blow up the country club. They were post apex and too far gone at that point.

The kids liked him, the vets hated him. Kipper for example didn’t like being told to keep track of faceoffs on a clipboard

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by chummer

This has been mentioned before and it was confirmed by a buddy of mine whose son worked with the Flames, Gaudreau and Monahan weren't going to re-sign if Hartley remained coach.

Yeah Gaudreau did go to Bob’s camp as a guest counsellor after he was fired

That’s okay. Now Johnny who recently said the team got the best results under demanding coaches won’t resign because of Sutter.

Am I doing this right?

[jlh2640]

All I care about tonight is that we look better coached. Energy should be there but he line matching and decisions should be better

[timbit]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Yeah Gaudreau did go to Bob’s camp as a guest counsellor after he was fired

That’s okay. Now Johnny who recently said the team got the best results under demanding coaches won’t resign because of Sutter.

Am I doing this right?

Nope, it’s re-sign.😯

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

This again? Anything else special happen Hartley’s last year? Hamilton sure hit the ground running, yes? How’d Ramo do from Dec through the knee blowout? How many times did the goalies let in 5+ in the 11 games right after Ramo got hurt? How about that Wideman?

I won’t repost my complete stroll down memory lane. Unless you bring it up again and force my hand.

Corsi was not good the previous year btw.

At least you agree that Hartley was turfed because he wasn’t Brad’s guy.

Hartley was a last ditch effort to either rally the core or blow up the country club. They were post apex and too far gone at that point.

The kids liked him, the vets hated him. Kipper for example didn’t like being told to keep track of faceoffs on a clipboard

In Hartley’s last year goaltending was bad. But it wasn’t 20 points less bad. Ramo had almost exactly the same save % as his previous 2 years. And he had way more starts than Hiller. Who suddenly dropped save % that had been consistent his whole career. And not always because of him. Because a strict positional goalie like Hiller is going to struggle when there’s no defensive plan.

Textcritic is right - look at the site back then. Nothing but complaints about Hartley’s use of Bennett, his stretch passes, his defensive structure, etc.

Finally, kids didn’t love Hartley, I don’t care how many times you bring up Gaudreau and the camp. They hated Hartley as their coach. For good reason, too. He’s the only coach ever to be included in a player’s NTC provisions. If you can make Brian McGrattan hate you, you are not a good person.

[GreenLantern2814]

My phone autocorrected Chuck Kobasew to Chuck Kovalev yesterday, and given the futility of Chucky’s career, and that he’s the only member of the 2004 team not to score a playoff goal, and and that he missed the celebration pile after one of the series clinchers, and that if we’d just drafted RJ Umberger instead of him, we’d have had three natural centres on the roster against Tampa and might’ve won but for that, he’s Chuck Kovalev for life to me.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Yeah Gaudreau did go to Bob’s camp as a guest counsellor after he was fired



That’s okay. Now Johnny who recently said the team got the best results under demanding coaches won’t resign because of Sutter.



Am I doing this right?

No, you are not. Not even close to right.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

[Macman]

I just hope our expectations of Darryl Sutter aren't to unrealistic. The guy is 62 years young.
The only expectation I really have is knowing we'll get a good idea of what this team really is.
I still think it's a good enough team to get into the playoffs this year but we'll see.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Macman

I just hope our expectations of Darryl Sutter aren't to unrealistic. The guy is 62 years young.
The only expectation I really have is knowing we'll get a good idea of what this team really is.
I still think it's a good enough team to get into the playoffs this year but we'll see.

I am trying to keep my expectations in check for the rest of this season. The team might be too far gone at this point. If he can improve individual players this year, missing the playoffs won't the end of the world.

62 isn't terribly old for an NHL coach. It's not that uncommon that the good ones coach into their 60s. I think the age concern has more to do with appearances. He is definitely weathered in appearance, but he still seems sharp and fit. Part of it is that he is a rugged dude. A lot of the older coaches dye their hair and style themselves in a youthful manner to keep up appearances. Sutter did that in L.A. as well, so it seems like he aged more than he did since then.

[howard_the_duck]

Bill Belichick is 68. Gregg Popovich is 72.

Coaching doesn't need to be a young man's game. Darryl's got a ton of miles left.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by transplant99

The style comment was paraphrasing from Tkachuk when asked what was said to the club.

In his zoom after the 1st practice Sutter said specifically:

"its not the system here, its the execution".

He truly believes he can get them playing quicker. He hasn't addressed team skating abilities per se, but a few times now stated/hinted that they need to play faster. I think all would agree with that.

It wont happen overnight but I expect those who get it and are willing to do so will be obvious to us watching in short order.

There’s no magic elixir to play faster though. Heck, Bill Peters talked about playing faster in this article one month into last year’s season,

https://www.nhl.com/flames/news/play-faster/c-310451184

They were roughly .500 before that article was written and they ended up right where they were one month after, no improvement, still just a .500 team and then that was it for Bill Peters (for different reasons). He coached this team to 50 wins the previous season, was owned in the playoffs and didn’t have the answers for the following season.

In Darryl Sutter’s situation, I don’t think he has the secret cheat code to playing faster that nobody else knows. If he can get this team to play with more urgency and more effort from period to period, sure this team has a chance. But like I said, I’m still skeptical for the long term; this core group has shown the ability to play well under one coach in one year and then sink him the next. 5 coaches in the last 6 seasons...the proof is in the pudding.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

People will always run with any nugget they can that fits their confirmation bias but the evidence doesn't support Ward being a competent head coach. Darryl said that there's not enough time to change the system and really the system may not be bad if played at a faster pace but Ward wasn't practicing at that pace and it resulted in a slow team unable to execute the system. We can go back and forth forever but at the end of the day the results show that Ward wasn't getting it done as the team's record is indisputable evidence.

First of all, Ward showed he is a competent head coach because he helped this team make the playoffs after a terrible start and then his team easily defeated the Winnipeg Jets 3-1. Yes there were injuries on the Jets side, but it wasn’t a close series, the Flames crushed the Jets.

Also, that’s specious reasoning. Just because they didn’t allegedly practice at a fast pace, doesn’t mean that was what translated into their actual games. They played well under Ward the previous season, what changed this season? Nothing. Same practice, same system, same method, same message. My belief is that it’s on the players as evidenced by the 5 coaches in 6 seasons and pattern of a good season followed by bad one/or bad start.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

First of all, Ward showed he is a competent head coach because he helped this team make the playoffs after a terrible start and then his team easily defeated the Winnipeg Jets 3-1. Yes there were injuries on the Jets side, but it wasn’t a close series, the Flames crushed the Jets.

Also, that’s specious reasoning. Just because they didn’t allegedly practice at a fast pace, doesn’t mean that was what translated into their actual games. They played well under Ward the previous season, what changed this season? Nothing. Same practice, same system, same method, same message. My belief is that it’s on the players as evidenced by the 5 coaches in 6 seasons and pattern of a good season followed by bad one/or bad start.

I think Ward was obviously not able to motivate his players to buy in, so I’m fine with his firing and I think they chose the right guy to fix it (or figure out who needs to go). While I can complain about some of his strategic choices and maybe his defensive setup, I really am not prepared to say “change the system = automatic better play”.

[TheSquatch]

I think the biggest thing is that Darryl has the entire organization behind him, and if someone can't get along inside whatever Darrly lays out, that person is going to go "bye-bye".

If the Flames chose Johnny over Hartley, that's one thing. But at this point none of these players are untouchable, and anyone Darryl singles out is gonna get a one-way ticket, is my thought. Which would be good. There's been no accountability at all. Play well, play bad, might play top line, might be a scratch, no one knows what's going on.

I think that's all about to change.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Red

Playing fast on this team is absolutely about physical abilities.

These guys practiced like it was a leisure charity skate so they got themselves out of shape. Since Peters left, the team got progressively slower which is a testament to Ward's attention to that aspect. The fastest skater at his practices was the guy rushing to change the music at the rink.

Sutter will change that. The players will get their legs going for once. He is all business.

There’s a lot of confusion with Bill Peters around here. His team struck gold back in 2018-19 but was easily figured out in the playoffs and then started the 19-20 season 12-12-4. Geoff Ward helped save the 2019-20 and then lead his team to an equally bad start of 11-11-2 this season. It’s actually kind of interesting how both starts of this season and last season mirror each other. Both teams had trouble scoring too.

If we can rely on this team/core to do anything, it’s to lose in the first round or get the next coach fired. Those are the patterns that I’ve seen.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I think Ward was obviously not able to motivate his players to buy in, so I’m fine with his firing and I think they chose the right guy to fix it (or figure out who needs to go). While I can complain about some of his strategic choices and maybe his defensive setup, I really am not prepared to say “change the system = automatic better play”.

And Ward isn’t alone. That’s 5 coaches in 6 seasons for them. This team has shown a pattern of behavior here regardless of the actual reasons. In my opinion, coaching hasn’t been the biggest problem, it’s the players and the core group. Perhaps it’s as simple as this core is being asked to do too much. I mean, when we compare them against other cores, is this team not where they’re suppose to be? Smack dab somewhere in the middle.

[Boreal]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

There’s a lot of confusion with Bill Peters around here. His team struck gold back in 2018-19 but was easily figured out in the playoffs and then started the 19-20 season 12-12-4. Geoff Ward helped save the 2019-20 and then lead his team to an equally bad start of 11-11-2 this season. It’s actually kind of interesting how both starts of this season and last season mirror each other. Both teams had trouble scoring too.

If we can rely on this team/core to do anything, it’s to lose in the first round or get the next coach fired. Those are the patterns that I’ve seen.

I don’t think there is any confusion with Bill Peters. He’s a Babcock acolyte who commodifies and uses people. He obviously isn’t as calculative as Babcock or he would have had more success.

Both of them have warped concepts of sports psychology and believe the end justifies the means. That works in the short term.

What no one talks about in the playoffs in 2019 that sunk the Flames was mindset. When Johnny couldn’t get a call he would look at the refs. That would only make things worse.

It is little things like that where coaching can make a difference. Don’t whine about calls/non-calls. Don’t embarrass the ref. The games are more physical and it’s called different. Deal with it.

Whatever Peters said to them at that point wasn’t enough, the right approach, or he didn’t have enough rapport with the players to get buy in.

Darryl approaches coaching a team more like Hartley. Hartley thought of it as a family, but I think Darryl is more intelligent and approaches coaching a hockey team like a family farm.

There is a list of duties, an order to the operations that is required to complete those chores, and a window of opportunity in which those chores can be completed. Adversity is automatic and a part of the game. Use it to be better.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

And Ward isn’t alone. That’s 5 coaches in 6 seasons for them. This team has shown a pattern of behavior here regardless of the actual reasons. In my opinion, coaching hasn’t been the biggest problem, it’s the players and the core group. Perhaps it’s as simple as this core is being asked to do too much. I mean, when we compare them against other cores, is this team not where they’re suppose to be? Smack dab somewhere in the middle.

There's some obvious merit to the idea that Giordano's age-related decline has impacted the team's success this year.

But if we're talking about the past few years in general?

No, the Flames' lack of success is an outlier relative to their puck possession metrics.

From 2017 to 2019, the Flames posted a CF% of 52.65%, which was good for fifth best in the NHL over that time. Nine teams total posted a shot attempt % of 51.50% or greater. Of these teams:

- The Boston Bruins were in the 2019 Stanley Cup Final

- The Carolina Hurricanes were in the 2019 Eastern Conference Final after a coaching change (removing the coach Calgary added, ironically)

- The Vegas Golden Knights were in the 2018 Stanley Cup Final

- The San Jose Sharks were in the 2018 Western Conference Finals

- The Calgary Flames won one out of nine postseason games played

- The Nashville Predators were in the 2017 Stanley Cup Final

- The Tampa Bay Lightning were in the 2018 Eastern Conference Final and also happen to be the 2020 Stanley Cup champions

- The St. Louis Blues were the 2019 Stanley Cup Champion

- The Montreal Canadiens were a clear outlier, making the playoffs once, and missing once with 96 pts (which would have made the playoffs in the West, BTW)

If you're making the argument that the Canadiens and Flames had comparable rosters over this 3-year span, then I'm open to debate.

If you agree that the Flames' roster was more skilled over that period than the Canadiens, then you would need to admit that the Flames underperformed relative to each of the seven other teams to post similarly strong puck possession metrics.