Brad Treliving needs to go

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Red

Exactly. GioforPM did a great breakdown on all the individual deals, but that misses the point that Treliving had a vision of a certain type of a team, but never delivered it. He was always busy making deals, some of them good, but those deals were not necessary.

Like New Era mentioned yesterday, the team badly needed a big RW for Monahan and Johhny, but Treliving made a move for Hamonic instead. This wasn't just a bad trade, it was a trade that was unnecessary.

I brought up Czarnik, Foo and Ryan as other examples of unnecessary moves. Even if they were not huge deals. So even if he won the UFA competition to bring them in, he didnt improve the team. And that should be his priority instead of winning trades or UFA wars.

Ryan was a good signing on the whole
Czarnik was a guy that had potential to pop. Cost very little. I don't see the downside in that.
Similar to Foo. These college guys get signed all the time. Some of them become something. Most don't. But you want to be in on them. For many years the Flames were not.

Just b/c he signed guys like Czarnik and Foo doesn't mean he wasn't trying to move elsewhere.

I suppose the Flames could just sit on the sidelines while other teams sign players from college, europe and elsewhere.

[Wastedyouth]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I think the bigger risk for gate revenue is that fans have been away from the game for so long they may not come back anyways. It's a complete unknown from my POV.
The biggest risk to pro sports is whether fans will continue to generate gate revenue particularly as the TV experience continues to improve.

Yeah, I don't think this is a risk at the moment.

The NHL's TV/Internet experience is pretty terrible.

I see rising ticket prices and in game expenses being more of a deterrant.

NHL tickets/in person experience has to be one of the worst in all of sports.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I can’t disagree. It’s a results league. Lots of GMs and coaches have been fired for just not getting results. I would add that Neal’s issues were completely knowable, with some diligence. And it was also a misread of what skills would be useful in the way the NHL was going - moving to a speed game.

Keep in mind that before Neal was signed the Flames had a deal in place with Ryan Reaves. His bags were packed, but Vegas matched at the last minute. That’s when the Flames made the offer to Neal. Hard to imagine an offer being made to Neal if the Reaves signing goes through (I’m pretty sure the Flames wouldn’t have had the cap space).

I know this is a results-driven business. But Treliving has been a very active GM, and as you outline, the victim of a lot of bad luck, timing, and the fact Calgary is not a very attractive destination for a lot of players (something which will continue to be a factor for Treliving’s successor). He should have broken up the core, but this was a terrible offseason to make trades, with only two hockey trades of consequence in a 31 team league. This season is also terrible timing to make a big deal of the kind this team needs.

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Ryan was a good signing on the whole
Czarnik was a guy that had potential to pop. Cost very little. I don't see the downside in that.
Similar to Foo. These college guys get signed all the time. Some of them become something. Most don't. But you want to be in on them. For many years the Flames were not.

Just b/c he signed guys like Czarnik and Foo doesn't mean he wasn't trying to move elsewhere.

I suppose the Flames could just sit on the sidelines while other teams sign players from college, europe and elsewhere.

The point is where is the team now.
And what success have they had in 7 years he has been GM.
Only reasonable conclusion is a change needs to be made.

[Red]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Ryan was a good signing on the whole
Czarnik was a guy that had potential to pop. Cost very little. I don't see the downside in that.
Similar to Foo. These college guys get signed all the time. Some of them become something. Most don't. But you want to be in on them. For many years the Flames were not.

Just b/c he signed guys like Czarnik and Foo doesn't mean he wasn't trying to move elsewhere.

I suppose the Flames could just sit on the sidelines while other teams sign players from college, europe and elsewhere.

Sure, he played the lottery on long shots and not surprisingly lost . All we have to show for that is a 3.2M 4th liner that's about to clear waivers. Ryan isn't a bad player, but he is a bad contract.

I wish Trelving sat on the sidelines for those guys. Neither guy filled the need to build a fast, large, tough to play against team.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Red

Sure, he played the lottery on long shots and not surprisingly lost . All we have to show for that is a 3.2M 4th liner that's about to clear waivers. Ryan isn't a bad player, but he is a bad contract.

I wish Trelving sat on the sidelines for those guys. Neither guy filled the need to build a fast, large, tough to play against team.

How many of those kind of players are available as UFAs? And what do they cost?

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Red

Sure, he played the lottery on long shots and not surprisingly lost . All we have to show for that is a 3.2M 4th liner that's about to clear waivers. Ryan isn't a bad player, but he is a bad contract.

I wish Trelving sat on the sidelines for those guys. Neither guy filled the need to build a fast, large, tough to play against team.

Why would you sit on the sidelines for a pro player that may teams felt like had untapped potential? Or one of the top college free agents?

Just because they didn't work out doesn't mean you don't try those guys. It literally costs you nothing more than low salaries.

Ryan's contract isn't great this year but on the whole it's been good.

These items aren't the problems with the team.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Keep in mind that before Neal was signed the Flames had a deal in place with Ryan Reaves. His bags were packed, but Vegas matched at the last minute. That’s when the Flames made the offer to Neal. Hard to imagine an offer being made to Neal if the Reaves signing goes through (I’m pretty sure the Flames wouldn’t have had the cap space).

I know this is a results-driven business. But Treliving has been a very active GM, and as you outline, the victim of a lot of bad luck, timing, and the fact Calgary is not a very attractive destination for a lot of players (something which will continue to be a factor for Treliving’s successor). He should have broken up the core, but this was a terrible offseason to make trades, with only two trades of consequence in a 31 team league. This season is also terrible timing to make a big deal of the kind this team needs.

I have never been as big of a fan of BT as most , and here's the reason. His teams are never as good as the sums of their parts, because IMO he doesnt have a long term vision of what he wants his team to be and how to get there. He just keep trying to add 'good parts' no matter if they fit or not.

How did Hamonic fit into this teams build or culture? Was he going to be a fast puck moving D? Or did BT see a guy who should be 'good' and want the part? (Or did he just want to outbid the Oilers to keep him away.....)

Did James Neal or Brouwer REALLY fit into this teams build at the time? Sure a goal scoring winger for JG and SM was needed. But were these players skillset condusive to playing with those guys?

Even the goalie debacle for 5 seasons is another example of no long term plan. Kept throwing away picks and 'hoping'. There clearly wasn't a plan other then "Luck into a value bounce back goalie" - I would rather him had made a player for some teams young backup and overpaid OR just stick with average goaltending without wasting assets and go get stars for other positions and live with trying to win 5-4.

Add in all the different coaches who all play different systems, it doesnt speak to someone who actually has a plan. It looks like reactionary actions to me.

Long term stability is important in a GM IF that GM has a long term plan and creates long term culture.

Judged by all his moves individually and in isolation I think you can make an argument that there is more good then bad and at the time, in theory, they 'kind of make sense' to plug a hole at that exact time.

But a team isnt created by acquiring pieces in isolation and this team's vision is what I think BT lacks.

[Red]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

How many of those kind of players are available as UFAs? And what do they cost?

What kind of players? The kind that are looking for that last NHL chance before going to Europe?

[CliffFletcher]

I think the team vision was to supplement the core of Gaudreau, Monahan, and Giordano with mostly drafted additions. The emergence of Gaudreau/Monahan as an elite (offensive anyway) duo and Gio as a Norris candidate made the team get impatient and move its plans forward.

NHL GMs don’t have a blank canvass to paint with. The draft takes years and years to pay dividends, they have no control over who’s available as UFAs (and have to overpay for the players who are), and trades are far more difficult to pull off in today’s NHL than fans want to believe.

[GioforPM]

Yeah it’s one thing to say Treliving didn’t get big fast skill players. What such players were available and what was the cost, either in trade or as a UFA?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I think the team vision was to supplement the core of Gaudreau, Monahan, and Giordano with mostly drafted additions. The emergence of Gaudreau/Monahan as an elite (offensive anyway) duo and Gio as a Norris candidate made the team get impatient and move its plans forward.

NHL GMs don’t have a blank canvass to paint with. The draft takes years and years to pay dividends, they have no control over who’s available as UFAs (and have to overpay for the players who are), and trades are far more difficult to pull off in today’s NHL than fans want to believe.

The Bennett failure was catastrophic to the plan IMO.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Red

What kind of players? The kind that are looking for that last NHL chance before going to Europe?

Which fast, large, tough players do you think Treliving should have signed as UFAs?

[Red]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Why would you sit on the sidelines for a pro player that may teams felt like had untapped potential? Or one of the top college free agents?

Just because they didn't work out doesn't mean you don't try those guys. It literally costs you nothing more than low salaries.

Ryan's contract isn't great this year but on the whole it's been good.

These items aren't the problems with the team.

We have already discussed the pros and cons with these long shots. I have no real issue with them, but the point I was trying to make was that Treliving planned to have a large, tough team, but kept signing players that would result in exact opposite.
And that on itself wouldn't be a problem if he also brought in that top line big RW as well. But he didn't.
So that begs the question, how was he following his plan?
To me it looks like he completely abandoned it.

[Classic_Sniper]

Treliving does a lot of good things as a GM; but his biggest downfall and possibly the reason why it might cost him his job is his talent evaluation. There was a story told by Burke years ago that Treliving loved the way Travis Hamonic played and was all in on him which based on the price that was paid, likely true. Like Travis Hamonic of all players? What was he so enamored about? His ability to puck off glass and out? Well that clearly didn’t work and neither has the plethora of players he’s scouted and acquired over the years.

Fast forward to the present and I once again find myself baffled by mot of his player 4 UFA signings: Nordstrom, Leivo, Simon and to a lesser extent Nikita Nesterov. A collective 66 games in, 0 goals, 2 assists and -17. They’re not even stuck on the same line, most of them have played with our top players and have only exacerbated their struggles. Who are his scouts and do they know anything about the core players of this team that they’ve been watching for 7 years?

[Jiri Hrdina]

James Neal was supposed to be that guy.

[Red]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Which fast, large, tough players do you think Treliving should have signed as UFAs?

Well, of the top of my head these few changed teams during Tre's tenure here. He was in on a few of them. Some UFAs and some were trades.

ROR
Kane
Laine
PLD
Anderson
Stone
Toffoli
Miller

And probably a bunch of others that fit the "tough to play against" that could fill on on the bottom 6.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Red

Well, of the top of my head these few changed teams during Tre's tenure here. He was in on a few of them. Some UFAs and some were trades.

ROR
Kane
Laine
PLD
Anderson
Stone
Toffoli
Miller

And probably a bunch of others that fit the "tough to play against" that could fill on on the bottom 6.

ROR was a miss. Some of these guys cost your favourite player. I actually think the first question was about UFAs (though I added trades), which is none of these guys except Toffoli.

[Enoch Root]

I think the place that a GM can make their mark and define the team is though drafting. Sure, if the right UFA comes along, or you can obtain a guy in a trade, that's great.

But every year you get to draft 6-8 young prospects. That's where you have the opportunity to construct your identity.

And I think it's pretty clear that never happened

[CliffFletcher]

We know Treliving was in on J Anderson, who fits the bill. The Jackets likely wanted a good young player (Valimaki or R Anderson) in return.