Brad Treliving needs to go

[GioforPM]

I think being a GM in the NHL is incredibly difficult and you probably can do everything right and not succeed, because luck and circumstance are huge factors. And no GM actually has done everything right. Even the Lou L’s have mistakes on their record.

With Treliving, at least I can see what he was trying to do with each and every move. So there was a rational basis, which you may want to argue was incorrect, but at least you can see there was a plan. Sometimes the plan evolves because of circumstances, but still a plan.

If you’re Treliving in 2015-16, Flames seem to have struck gold with a late pick in Gaudreau, who is gelling with Monahan. Gio and Brodie are playing way above expectations, Wideman had a really good year, you just drafted in the highest position ever and got a centre who by all accounts, may be the best forward in the draft. Your goaltending turned in a solid year, and you have decent support with guys like Backlund, Ferland, Frolik. So you go out and pay a big price for a hole - a RHS huge potential Dman. You extend the coach, who you don’t like but he won a round.

OK, so 2015-2016 - the Flames lose ground in the standings big time, but maybe it’s goaltending. So you continue on. You’ve traded away Hudler and Russell for decent assets because they are declining. That’s good. You’ve drafted Tkachuk because Vancouver messed up. You also drafted Dube and Parsons who both look good. Your 2015 picks Andersson and Kylington look good too. The players hate Hartley so you get rid of him for a more modern coach who is a disciple of the consensus best coach around. You get rid of the goaltenders who many people blame for the drop. You get a goalie with very solid numbers. The Flames have always needed a big RW who can score, so you find a guy who is consistently just above or below 20 goals.

2016-17. OK, so the Flames rebounded some. The goaltending was better. Tkachuk looks great. But your high draft pick centre doesn’t look like he’s going to be elite and maybe not even a 2C. And in the POs the goaltending disappears, and the team looks off. So out go those goalies and you get Mike Smith, who is a huge guy with a good record. And the team drops 10 points. Hamilton doesn’t fit in off ice and Bennett is looking even worse. Brouwer is bad. Brodie without Gio is not good - he needs someone better than Wideman or Engelland. But maybe someone who can cover him defensively.

2017-18 - you keep with the program but Brouwer is still bad, Smith gets worse. You miss the POs. You also want a steady RHS D to bolster the defence so you get a good character guy who is a strong defender in Hamonic.

2018-19: So to address the Bennett issue you decide to trade Hamilton and Ferland to get Lindholm, who can give you a 1A 1B situation, and Hanifin, who isn’t an offensive stud, but still has potential. Brodie can go back with Gio like everyone wants and Hanifin and Hamonic should work well together - a skater with a stay at home guy. And you turf Brouwer, but because you still want a big RW to play with one of the two top pairings, you get Neal, who’s never failed to score 20 in his whole NHL career. And you hire a guy who you’ve wanted for a few years as coach. But Neal sucks, and you end up putting your intended 1B on RW, which works pretty darn well. Team looks pretty good, except your goalies are not great. Smith is bad and Rittich looks good for a while but comes to earth. And then the Flames who are on the slow side, get exposed by the Avs in the POs as pretty easy to defend, because your offence is all on one, pretty easy to defend, line.

Last year - disaster with a coach, your goaltending improves to “OK”, and the team continues to struggle into the POs. Hamonic isn’t working, Brodie is going. But Ward holds the team together, wins a play-in which feels pretty PO like, and then wins a couple games in round one (and is seconds from 3-1). Close? So offseason you spend money to get the best defensive D possible and a stud goalie. Then the season suddenly starts and without much training camp and a new coach, here we are.

There aren’t a whole lot of clear errors in strategy without the aid of hindsight. There are some mis-evaluations of talent and just bad luck as well.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

But it does.

Playoffs are playoffs, small sample size.

The Pacific has been one of the toughest divisions to play in for almost 2 decades. It is much harder to get into playoffs for the Flames than other larger market teams.

That the Flames have been as successful as they have been in the last decade is impressive. Considering how difficult it is to attract premier FA's or be a premier trade destination and not having a sniff at a franchise draft pick, ever.

Up until Vegas, 8 of 14 teams made the playoffs in West.

The playoffs aren’t a small sample size either, they are what really counts. Flames haven’t even been competitive.

The Flames success over last 10 years has been impressive? Winning way more than they lose? Guess we just see it differently.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

Just how much of the franchise's bottom line is driven by ticket revenue anyway? Someone made a good point the other day that we are not the customers, we are just rabble. Advertisers are the customers.

Including concessions purchased by those at games? Add in parking and other ancillary sales.

Probably 100+ Million a season im guessing.

[dirk diggler]

GIO FOR PM, you make some great points. I do believe that Treliving works hard at trying to improve his team but i feel like he has been here long enough and the same issues remain. The Hamonic trade as discussed was awful, you make a trade like that if you are a team like Tampa and you need that one piece to get you to the promised land, that was never the Flames during his tenure as GM, he misjudged his team. He doesnt seem to know what kind of team he is building.

[Voodooman]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

There aren’t a whole lot of clear errors in strategy without the aid of hindsight. There are some mis-evaluations of talent and just bad luck as well.

You make that case very solidly. It looks like such a yard sale now, but at the time, most of the moves made sense. Maybe Neal was questionable, but like you said, the guy never failed to score 20, and sometimes a change of scenery works for a locker room cancer, but it just didn't this time.

As for Bennett, they didn't take a flyer, 29 other teams would have likely pulled the exact same trigger. You would think that a young player will continue to develop the mental side of their game as they mature, but I don't know if he's simply not capable, or not motivated, but there are very few signs that Bennett will ever increase his hockey IQ. He's simply a draft bust, and the Flames were the ones left holding the bag.

Having said all that, and despite your strong case, I still think Tre has to go. It's time for a change in direction. He just hasn't gotten the job done, and sometimes, you have to make your own luck. And sometimes, you have to change as an organization to take the next step.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Voodooman

You make that case very solidly. It looks like such a yard sale now, but at the time, most of the moves made sense. Maybe Neal was questionable, but like you said, the guy never failed to score 20, and sometimes a change of scenery works for a locker room cancer, but it just didn't this time.

As for Bennett, they didn't take a flyer, 29 other teams would have likely pulled the exact same trigger. You would think that a young player will continue to develop the mental side of their game as they mature, but I don't know if he's simply not capable, or not motivated, but there are very few signs that Bennett will ever increase his hockey IQ. He's simply a draft bust, and the Flames were the ones left holding the bag.

Having said all that, and despite your strong case, I still think Tre has to go. It's time for a change in direction. He just hasn't gotten the job done, and sometimes, you have to make your own luck. And sometimes, you have to change as an organization to take the next step.

I can’t disagree. It’s a results league. Lots of GMs and coaches have been fired for just not getting results. I would add that Neal’s issues were completely knowable, with some diligence. And it was also a misread of what skills would be useful in the way the NHL was going - moving to a speed game.

[chedder]

Originally Posted by dirk diggler

He doesnt seem to know what kind of team he is building.

This is the problem in a nutshell. He always talks about building and being a big, strong, fast hard team to play against.

The team he constructed is none of the above. Arguably the slowest, softest, easiest team to play against, especially in the playoffs.

[Aarongavey]

GioforPM I would have added in 17/18 locking down Michael Stone for 10.5 million over 3 years a couple weeks after we picked up Hamonic for a 1st and two 2nds as also part of the plan that offseason. We managed to strengthen our backend with those two key additions that year, lock in the backend as being the part of the lineup that we disproportionately spent our money, particularly on our third through fifth dmen and all it cost us was a 1st, two 2nds and a 5th.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

GioforPM I would have added in 17/18 locking down Michael Stone for 10.5 million over 3 years a couple weeks after we picked up Hamonic for a 1st and two 2nds as also part of the plan that offseason. We managed to strengthen our backend with those two key additions that year, lock in the backend as being the part of the lineup that we disproportionately spent our money, particularly on our third through fifth dmen and all it cost us was a 1st, two 2nds and a 5th.

The Stone signing baffled me, money wise. He really really wanted to play here because his wife is from here, and he’s settled in. I thought Treliving was way too soft in that bargain.

[blender]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I can’t disagree. It’s a results league. Lots of GMs and coaches have been fired for just not getting results. I would add that Neal’s issues were completely knowable, with some diligence. And it was also a misread of what skills would be useful in the way the NHL was going - moving to a speed game.

What were Neal's issues? Not sure if I've been under a rock, but I wasn't aware of anything concrete.

[Flames0910]

Most of the moves made sense from a reactionary "patch the holes" perspective, but the GM's job is to make an accurate assessment of where the team is at (regardless of luck, circumstance, etc) and make strategic moves from there. Treliving's supposed to have access and insight that we don't have, but it seems to me like he's been riding the roller coaster with all of us instead.

• Making a splash and adding Hamonic — misjudged the situation after a fortunate year.
• Busts like Neal, Elliot, Smith, Lazar and Hamonic — misjudged the fit and impact of incoming players.
• Not trading Bennet when he still had value — fell in love with his own asset.
• Coaching— speaks for itself, doesn't seem to know what his group needs.

Honestly, the biggest one is Bennet. We know Treliving has had opportunities to trade him after strong playoff performances, but the wizard kept believing that Bennet would turn into something special. Flames were so worried about Bennet putting it all together for another team that they ended up holding on right until his stock tanked.

[Toonage]

^ They added Hamonic after being dumped by the Ducks in 4. Nothing special about that season.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The Stone signing baffled me, money wise. He really really wanted to play here because his wife is from here, and he’s settled in. I thought Treliving was way too soft in that bargain.

He blew that entire offseason in my opinion, got two big slow dmen for a bunch of picks in a league where big slow dmen were on the way out. One of those type off dmen would have been too many in my opinion and he managed to get two. He did not really need two right hand shot dmen that offseason but he got them anyway.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

TV ratings for all sports have been way down during the pandemic, even though people have been stuck at home watching more streaming content than ever before. Covid has accelerated the decline in popularity of pro sports altogether.

Part of it too is that the sports experience is not as good without fans and I’m inclined to believe that affects viewership.

But even if the percentage of people watching pro sports is declining, I’m not sure that correlates to less revenues. A smaller piece of a bigger pie might still be OK.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

He blew that entire offseason in my opinion, got two big slow dmen for a bunch of picks in a league where big slow dmen were on the way out. One of those type off dmen would have been too many in my opinion and he managed to get two. He did not really need two right hand shot dmen that offseason but he got them anyway.

Hamonic wasn’t reputed to be slow. He was actually billed as a pretty mobile stay at home guy. And he was supposed to counter Brodie’s style.

Stone was pure depth which made the money strange.

[868904]

GioforPM good post. You are right about even Lou Lamariello having made mistakes, but the thing with Lou is he acted and fixed his mistakes. Lou never sat on a bad or wrong coaching hiring, he acted quickly.

I do think Treliving has done a good job overall, I like his drafting, I like his trades (though I think he needs to be more active during the season when a change is needed), he's made some mistakes in free agency, but so has pretty much every other GM.

But his biggest issue is the coaching hires and this is probably the most important thing he needs to get right. A great coach can make a good team out of a poor roster. A bad coach can make a bad team out of a good roster.

I think Treliving has assembled a good roster here, but his team is performing poorly and to me, it's because he hired a bad coach. The reason why I'm ok with firing Treliving is because this isn't the only bad coach he's hired.

[BagoPucks]

What about PP specialist Gustafsson?
Imo should have kept him after spending an asset on getting him and see how he gelled

[Red]

Originally Posted by chedder

This is the problem in a nutshell. He always talks about building and being a big, strong, fast hard team to play against.

The team he constructed is none of the above. Arguably the slowest, softest, easiest team to play against, especially in the playoffs.

Exactly. GioforPM did a great breakdown on all the individual deals, but that misses the point that Treliving had a vision of a certain type of a team, but never delivered it. He was always busy making deals, some of them good, but those deals were not necessary.

Like New Era mentioned yesterday, the team badly needed a big RW for Monahan and Johhny, but Treliving made a move for Hamonic instead. This wasn't just a bad trade, it was a trade that was unnecessary.

I brought up Czarnik, Foo and Ryan as other examples of unnecessary moves. Even if they were not huge deals. So even if he won the UFA competition to bring them in, he didnt improve the team. And that should be his priority instead of winning trades or UFA wars.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by blender

What were Neal's issues? Not sure if I've been under a rock, but I wasn't aware of anything concrete.

It didn't take a genius to know that Neal was never a top line, 3-zone player that could elevate his linemates. He was always someone that had commitment issues at times, limited foot speed and fed off of play driving, high end talent.....something is wrong if your GM thinks the answer is to blow the bank and pair a guy like that with Monahan, who has similar issues himself.

Trading major assets for a second pairing defender like Hamonic and signing others like Brouwer, Stone and Ryan to insane money to play redundant roles when you knew immediately that there would be a very poor return is just beyond perplexing as well. These moves have lead the team to where it is. Just as doing next to nothing to shake up or improve the skill at the forward position when it has clearly been lacking for the last 2 off seasons.

[Enoch Root]

There is a great deal of luck involved in building a team, no question. Late rounders can turn into stars, and high picks can bust. Happens to every team.

However, after 7 years, a GM should have at least created the type of team he envisions. A style of play, an identity.

As I recall, he said he wanted a team built on speed that was hard to play against. We certainly don't have that. But no matter what type of team he envisioned (whether that or something else), we don't have it. Or his vision sucked because the team isn't fast, it isn't hard to paly against, it isn't big or physical, it isn't... anything.

And I think that is an indictable offense, after 7 years.