[News] All-encompassing Bennett trade discussions thread

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by DoubleK

You hit the nail on the head.

My thoughts....

Shiny new thing Ritchie looked good last time out. I'd give him a go for a couple more games and then Levio a long look as suggested.

Levio is coming off an couple seasons with injuries and not a lot of game action. That takes time to work through (or not), but the challenge presented by the short season doesn't afford that time.

What is kind of surprising about Leivo to me is that he is 27 years old, has never played more than 49 games in a season, and has never scored more than 10 goals in a season. Yes, he might be 'breaking out', and if remains healthy, he might just do that. I notice some of the things that he does, and you can definitely see some offensive ability in his game. He just has until this point in his career never put it all together, or stayed healthy enough.


I think for as long as Calgary is trying to make the Lindholm-Monahan-Backlund centre situation a thing (which I have no issues with), I really do believe that Bennett is the best choice to stick with the Monahan line. 3 years younger than Leivo, and double the goals and points.

[Harry Lime]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

What is kind of surprising about Leivo to me is that he is 27 years old, has never played more than 49 games in a season, and has never scored more than 10 goals in a season. Yes, he might be 'breaking out', and if remains healthy, he might just do that. I notice some of the things that he does, and you can definitely see some offensive ability in his game. He just has until this point in his career never put it all together, or stayed healthy enough.


I think for as long as Calgary is trying to make the Lindholm-Monahan-Backlund centre situation a thing (which I have no issues with), I really do believe that Bennett is the best choice to stick with the Monahan line. 3 years younger than Leivo, and double the goals and points.

That meshes with David Struch's idea above, and is seconded by dino7c and TOFFIV. We have a cohesive plan that we are all happy with, to keep Bennett on Johnny's off wing all season. Huzzah!

[Mathgod]

I just wish people would cut it out with the "3 points" bullcrap.

Sam gets 0 powerplay time, limited minutes, and has played the majority of his minutes this season with scrub linemates. Put him on the top line and he scores 2 even strength goals in 4 games.

There's more to analyzing a player than just looking at his stat line and drawing hasty conclusions.

[rhino]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

I just wish people would cut it out with the "3 points" bullcrap.

Sam gets 0 powerplay time, limited minutes, and has played the majority of his minutes this season with scrub linemates. Put him on the top line and he scores 2 even strength goals in 4 games.

There's more to analyzing a player than just looking at his stat line and drawing hasty conclusions.

I agree totally. Sam has been misused since his second full year. His rookie season he put up 36 pts I believe playing second line with Backlund and again no PP time. Since then it’s been a disaster, let the poor guy go somewhere where he can have a legit opportunity

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

I just wish people would cut it out with the "3 points" bullcrap.

Sam gets 0 powerplay time, limited minutes, and has played the majority of his minutes this season with scrub linemates. Put him on the top line and he scores 2 even strength goals in 4 games.

There's more to analyzing a player than just looking at his stat line and drawing hasty conclusions.

That has been tried. When we actually attempt to discuss Bennett's skill set one of his defenders is certain to quickly jump to the points per 60 minutes played fallacy to show how good Sam is or how effective he could be, completely ignoring the fact that coach-after-coach-after-coach quickly realizes that Bennett cannot be trusted to amass the ice time needed to meet these lofty expectations. So let's give this one more try.

Observationally Sam Bennett, like all hockey players, is a culmination of his parts.

Sam's skating is pretty average. He doesn't have blinding speed or a second gear that catches defenders on their heels. He isn't overly agile or what you would call a water bug. While he doesn't spend as much time on his ass when he first came up he still isn't the most stable guy on his blades. His skating is average.

Pucks skills are pretty limited for Bennett. He's not a great stick handler and his go-to move is the toe drag. All too often Bennett will try to stick handle past a defender and end up losing the puck. His stick handling is way below average.

Bennett's passing skills are also way below average. Every now and then he makes one that is magical, but for the most part he struggles to make simple passes that don't miss his target or end up in someone's skates. His inability to distribute the puck is probably why he instead tries to beat multiple players on a rush.

Sam's shot is terrible. This is his worst skill IMO. Sam's shot struggles to break cellophane. Not only is it weak, but he has problems getting it off and has zero accuracy. There is a reason why the Sam Bennett high light videos are pretty much filled with deflections and jamming rebounds home, its because his shot is so poor.

Hockey IQ also holds Bennett back in a big way. The game is really too fast for him. He doesn't read plays and his anticipation is non-existent. More often than not Bennett skates into coverage or finds his way into the same piece of ice his line mate is already occupying. Finding the soft spot or creating open ice is a foreign concept to Bennett. He could get away with this in junior hockey where his motor could cover some of these flaws, but in the NHL he doesn't have that advantage. He needs to be smarter and read plays, which Sam just does very poorly.

So when you add all of these parts together you get a very substandard player that peaked in junior and has not developed beyond that level. Bennett's best tools are his motor and fearlessness, but he doesn't have the skill to play in a meaningful role with any level of consistency. For short bursts Bennett's motor allow him to have some success, but it is fleeting at best and he is quickly figured out. The sad thing is that if he had some form of hockey IQ his motor would make him the perfect defensive center. But his lack of instincts makes him horrible in that role as well.

Sam Bennett is the sum of his parts and not a very good hockey player. He tries hard but that is the extent of his skill set. Benny is a complimentary player at best, and to date the team has not found a situation where Bennett can be successful with any level of consistency. That's on the team, but it is also on Sam Bennett and his inability to make himself into a successful player in some shape or form.

[GioforPM]

^^ Pretty good assessment.

Every NHL coach, including Hartley, has wanted more out of Bennett. But he just doesn’t seem to have top line skill (yes I know that Simon, Leivo, etc don’t either but that’s a different discussion).

He has one huge asset - a good motor. The rest of his game is flawed as point out above.

Maybe the reason Ward benched him and not, say Tkachuk who was also not engaged in some games, is because Tkachuk can (and has) succeeded despite not giving that 100% effort whereas Ward is saying “Sam, you NEED to try every shift or you just aren’t an NHLer”.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

People see what they want to see.

Does he try junior moves? Yes.

But most of the time he IS playing north-south, smash mouth hockey. He forechecks as aggressively as any Flame forward, and more than most.

So far this season: Averaging 1.8 hits per game.

Last August: Averaged 5 hits per game.


Our definition of smash mouth hockey must be different because I see a completely different player right now. I get that he can’t play the same way in the regular season, but there’s a happy medium and he’s not getting to that level.

I can see some effort out there, but he’s not doing any of the things that makes him special. He’s just regular season Sam Bennett right now and he also made that brutal error yesterday that in part lead to the winning goal. Haas the goal scorer was his man and I’m not even sure he looked at him once.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Yup.

know who else tries so called Junior moves? Tkachuk. And Gaudreau has plenty of puck carrying attempts broken up himself.

Except Johnny Gaudreau’s career high in assists from just one season (63) almost matches Sam Bennett’s entire 380 game career (66). Of course Tkachuk and Gaudreau are going to turn the puck over, every player in the NHL turns the puck over, even McDavid and Crosby turn the puck over.

The difference is Tkachuk and Gaudreau are the 2 best playmakers on this team so you can live with their turnovers because it generally ends up as a net positive. Regular season Sam Bennett on the other hand is generally a net negative. All the attempted moves that just result in turnovers, then throw in all the goals against right now and it equates to a player not helping, but hurting his team. The Flames margin to win is so razor thin right now, they can’t afford all these basic blunders.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Except Johnny Gaudreau’s career high in assists from just one season (63) almost matches Sam Bennett’s entire 380 game career (66). Of course Tkachuk and Gaudreau are going to turn the puck over, every player in the NHL turns the puck over, even McDavid and Crosby turn the puck over.

The difference is Tkachuk and Gaudreau are the 2 best playmakers on this team so you can live with their turnovers because it generally ends up as a net positive. Regular season Sam Bennett on the other hand is generally a net negative. All the attempted moves that just result in turnovers, then throw in all the goals against right now and it equates to a player not helping, but hurting his team. The Flames margin to win is so razor thin right now, they can’t afford all these basic blunders.

If I can generalize, Johnny usually turns the puck over when he tries to hit another guy with a pass and it doesn’t work. Sam loses the puck when he ignores his teammates and tries to dangle through two defenders.

He scored a couple goals on that line by coming to the net and taking a point blank shot off of a good feed from behind the net. Great, but not exactly something requiring unique skill. Other players on trying out on that line should look at that and figure they can do it too, because they probably can.

I just don’t like Sam’s defence on that line, which IMO needs a good skating two way player. Lindholm fit the bill, Bennett doesn’t, though he fits better than, say Tkachuk.

[DoubleK]

"There's no reason in the world that Sam Bennett needs to be in that lineup"

Some from @SNRhettWarrener this morning about if the #Flames are sending a bad message by keeping Sam Bennett in their lineup

#CofRed @BoomerMorning pic.twitter.com/f7tBtzWZqW

https://twitter.com/Sportsnet960/sta...40880274612227

Rhett u mad bro?

[Red]

Rhett's right. I said that weeks ago, trade him asap or it will cause issues on the team.

Treliving is looking for the perfect deal, meanwhile the team is sputtering in to irrelevance in this terrible division.

[bluejays]

If Treliving is holding out for the right deal I’m all for it. You don’t want a James Neal situation. Let’s face it, the team losing is not because of Bennett. Get good value leading up to the deadline. There won’t be a magic bullet for Sam Bennett coming the other way unless it’s part of a bigger package.

[Captain Otto]

Gimme a break. Who's running that team?

Bunch of prima donnas.

You don't make player decisions - you're getting paid millions, go out there and do your f***ing jobs. Don't worry about the lineup.



Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

[powderjunkie]

EV w/Monahan/Gaudreau:

Bennett 4GF - 1GA = +3 (81mins)

Simon 3-2=+1 (58 mins)
Leivo 0-2= -1 (32 mins)
Mangi 0-0=0 (27 mins)
Tkachuk 2-0=+2 (14mins)

Somewhat interesting is Monahan+Gaudreau alone together EV are 0-3 = -3 (10mins). This might be mostly/all OT though.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Red

Rhett's right.

What is it that he is right about?

Here are the statements he's made

1) Sam Bennett's done nothing to earn being in the lineup

5v5 Bennett is

4th on the team in expected goals (3.42 - he has 3 so that sounds about right)
3rd on the team in unblocked shot attempts rate (11.38/60 minutes)
2nd on the team in shots on goal rate (8.6 / 60 minutes)
4th on the team in goals rate (0.76/60 minutes)
4th on the team in penalties drawn rate (1.01/ 60 minutes)

If he's done nothing, then what have other guys done? Less than nothing? But either way, on a roster of, let's say 11 regulars, this is not nothing. And yes, he's had a ####ty year. NO ONE is happy with his play overall. But everything is relative. and yeah, there are areas of his game he SHOULD be unsatisfied with, but this is NOT NOTHING.

2) "oh, so I'm worse than Sam Bennett? Show me how!"

Yes, guys like Simon, Leivo, even Dube and Backlund have not been markedly better than Sam Bennett this year. I don't know how Rhett can argue otherwise. And last I checked, Dube started the season up the lineup while Bennett was on the fourth line, so it's not as if guys haven't been given opportunity themselves. That extends to the others as well. Maybe Rhett would rather see Nordstrom elevated up the lineup?

3) "team-worse minus-8"

So now, Rhett is referencing a stat that means SFA. If players in the year 2020 are looking at plus-minus, I really gotta cringe.

4) "takes terrible penalties"

Bennett has taken four minors this year.

Two of them came in one game, at the beginning of the year.

One of those was the so-called interference in the Oilers game. Which, most would probably argue was a clean ####ing hit.

One of those was against the Leafs. Maybe it was terrible, I dunno, because I honestly don't even remember it, but he was far from the only Flame to get put in the penalty box in those games with the way they were called.

5) "Has been bumped up to the first line for no apparent reason"

That's not a Sam Bennett issue. That's not even a Geoff Ward issue. That's a roster issue, Rhett. Tell me who should be there. And yeah, sure, you could argue Dube, but that's nitpicking since teams roll at least three lines 5 on 5 and Dube's supposed to be an effective part of that other line.

6) "the other guys aren't great but there is no reason, in the world, that Sam Bennett needs to be in that lineup"

You know, other than the fact that the other guys aren't even passable.

7) "you've got a guy, that clearly doesn't care"

That's not clear, actually. At least at 5 on 5, the guys' third on the team in hits taken. Guys who don't care don't usually take hits to make plays, they quit on those plays. The guy leads the team in ES shots blocked. Blocked shots are a questionable stat and not one I read a lot into in terms of performance... but you don't block shots if you don't ####ing care. He's fourth on the team in high danger chances. You can talk all you want about the value of what that means on the ice, but you don't go into high danger areas if you don't care.

What's clear exactly, Rhett? That his agent said he might like a change of scenery in a contract year? Well, that's not the same as not caring about his teammates right now. Learn to separate the business side of things from the GAF side of things.

And yeah, you can talk all you want about an "uninspired" backcheck a handful of games ago but you'd have to be reading really, really deep into it to come to a conclusion that the guy clearly doesn't care.

8) "his goal in Toronto wasn't because of anything that he did"

Look at the goal again, Rhett. Look who's in the corner battling hard for the puck that eventually ends up on Andersson's stick on the point.



The guy who doesn't care.

Sorry, but this was just a trash take by Warrener.

I'm not even defending Sam Bennett here, I'm literally defending Geoff Ward, who I don't even like.

So what is Warrener right about?

This idea that as soon as any guy asks for a trade, you bury him in the press box? That literally doesn't happen. Anywhere. Teams have won championships with players playing who we later discover "didn't want to be there".

Honestly, the more I've been hearing Warrener speculate on this team's locker room, the more I'm starting to wonder if HE was the cancer in those Iginla teams' locker rooms.

[pepper24]

Rhett's correct about Bennett trade request being an issue in the room and that overall Bennett doesn't deserve top line minutes or could even be in the press box. It's tough in the dressing room when you know someone doesn't want to be there. Bennett is a pro and has handled well from the outside but a good dressing room is a big part of any team.

The caveat though is that Leivo and Simon have been worse on the ice. Dube and Mangiapane are better replacements but playing well on other lines. Ritchie played well when he was in line up but realistically is a taxi squad player and short term fix at best.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by pepper24

Rhett's correct about Bennett trade request being an issue in the room and that overall Bennett doesn't deserve top line minutes or could even be in the press box. It's tough in the dressing room when you know someone doesn't want to be there. Bennett is a pro and has handled well from the outside but a good dressing room is a big part of any team.

The caveat though is that Leivo and Simon have been worse on the ice. Dube and Mangiapane are better replacements but playing well on other lines. Ritchie played well when he was in line up but realistically is a taxi squad player and short term fix at best.

Dube has not been good this season. We can stop that conversation right here.

When has he looked the best? When playing with Bennett as his centre.

Dube, much like almost everyone else on this team, has not been good.

Honestly if I were to pick who the next player everyone rags on, it’d be Dube. He’s done nothing, and that includes long stints of playing with Tkachuk and Lindholm. He’s even taken the same number of minor penalties this season (4) - which even further pokes holes in Rhett’s rant.

[pepper24]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Dube has not been good this season. We can stop that conversation right here.

When has he looked the best? When playing with Bennett as his centre.

Dube, much like almost everyone else on this team, has not been good.

Honestly if I were to pick who the next player everyone rags on, it’d be Dube. He’s done nothing, and that includes long stints of playing with Tkachuk and Lindholm. He’s even taken the same number of minor penalties this season (4) - which even further pokes holes in Rhett’s rant.

Dube has 7 points in 18 games (3G, 4A) with some time missed with injury and Bennett only 4 points (3G, 1A) in 20 games.

Dube has 88 career games and still figuring things out while Bennett has 384 games and we know who he is.

Dube hasn't been great but is ahead of Bennett.

[Red]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

What is it that he is right about?



This idea that as soon as any guy asks for a trade, you bury him in the press box?

Bingo!

The guy's trade request was made public, that's different from someone (who exactly?) that quietly asked the GM to be moved but continued on and won a Cup.
The guy barely makes any impact on the ice. This isn't some good player that is still helping the team. This was a player that at that point had 2 points on the season. Where is the upside to play him? We know what the downside is to ruining a team atmosphere. The team has seemed very disinterested since the news broke out. Coincidence? Maybe. But still, where is the upside?
Is Trelving gonna get a 1st rounder for him at the deadline or at the draft?
I just don't think you risk team chemistry for a guy of Bennett's pedigree.
And to be honest, he is lucky to be playing trade request or not. If he were not a high draft pick would he be getting these opportunities?

Just take your 2nd or 3rd round pick and let the team move on.

[GioforPM]

Rhett being the cancer in Iggy’s room is a funny line. But he’s basically admitted that Iggy didn’t like his carefree and sometimes drunken antics.

There’s alumni who seem hooked in and those who aren’t. I have a feeling Rhett isn’t hooked in. I’m not sure about Versteeg or Brouwer either. If anyone is still in touch I’d bet on Stajan, maybe with Gio. There’s some older guys who are hooked into management types. For example, Berezan still hears things.