The Deal With Geoff Ward

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Versteeg pointing the finger at Ward. Says tactically he’s doing questionable things that are preventing players from getting into games and causing the slow starts and other issues.

Passive 1-man forecheck to start games specifically called out. Not putting players in positions to succeed (notes zone starts).

Versteeg also backed the players in the room.

Yup

That's a veteran guy that played with this core, and who also played on other winning rosters in the NHL.

And he's saying what all the detractors of Ward are saying in this thread.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Versteeg pointing the finger at Ward. Says tactically he’s doing questionable things that are preventing players from getting into games and causing the slow starts and other issues.

Passive 1-man forecheck to start games specifically called out. Not putting players in positions to succeed (notes zone starts).

Versteeg also backed the players in the room.

What does “backed the players in the room” mean? I thought the deal in the room was that there was a dispute.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Inferno

Wasn't that because Vancouver wouldn't let them because they were grooming Greene to be the future head coach?

No mention of it in this piece, but they mention that Anaheim was also interested in Greene at the time.

https://vancouversun.com/sports/hock...d-coaching-gig

And this little tidbit:

As many as 10 candidates may be considered for the Flames’ position and the front-runners now appear to be New Jersey Devils assistant coach Geoff Ward and former Edmonton Oilers head coach Ralph Krueger. Flames GM Brad Treliving has cited the experience of building something of significance at various levels in the game as being a key criteria to develop his young players and get the Flames back to the playoffs.

I don't recall Krueger being seriously considered at the time. Interesting that Ward was a consideration back then. It sounds like Ward was also the back-up guy for a while. He was considered a front runner a few years ago.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

What does “backed the players in the room” mean? I thought the deal in the room was that there was a dispute.

That's nothing but media speculation, spurred by Friedman's comments regarding the team telling Tkachuk to tone it down (and it is an entirely unsubstantiated train of speculation).

Versteeg believes the players in the room can win, but that coaching has been questionable on numerous fronts.

[Jeff Lebowski]

The breakout, earlier in year, was limiting CGY from getting into it to. Going strong side and just using that half of the ice was easy to defend. Plays/players getting rubbed out early against the walls.

It just didn't feel like it had any flow to it. It didn't look natural. It was a danger close situation with so many people close in and closing on guys - they just put their heads down and tried to get the puck away from the danger (flip it the nz).

CGY used the weak side a little more (as DM pointed out - early in the first of last game) and it worked. Build on that.

Use the width of the ice, trust your hockey iq, creativity, anticipation and abilities. This is their strength.

In the offensive zone, continue that creativity and have guys like Hanifin, Andersson to skate in there and scan the ice looking for openings. This team just needs to trust their abilities and flow. Movement and creativity:

Offence is movement. Movement forces decisions from the defence and creates confusion in coverage. Breakdowns and scoring chances follow. It’s a formula — not infallible, but one that brings success through the course of a game.

It begins with using space. Players have to use the width and length of the ice to send the puck away from the defence’s grasp, especially right after they enter the zone to establish possession. The Leafs already do this well in the above sequences. But it’s not enough to use space. Even if it’s sometimes necessary to move the puck to the periphery to establish possession, it can’t stay there — shots from the slot score at a higher rate, and the little black disc has to find its way back inside.

To take it to dangerous areas, players have to move purposely inside the offensive zone.

https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2...-sheldon-keefe

I don't think that detracts from being a good team defensively. The 18-19 team (after that 9-1 loss to PITT at home) limited the chances against but still were creative and flowing in their offensive game. Now you can do that with tremendous depth where you have smart, skilled and 2 way players on each line with centers: Monahan, Lindholm, Backlund, Bennett (he played well with Monny and Johnny too).
You can place guys like Gaudreu, Tkachuck, Mangiapane, Dube with those guys and get great chemistry with skill, iq, speed, forecheck too when needed and just make plays.

Defend fast, attack fast but play with your guts and passion and doing the things that got you there: smart, skilled, competitive, hard working (skating) etc.

Trust those attributes (and more) and let it flow. Show us how good you are and don't be afraid of mistakes. Be tenacious and get the puck back.

[redforever]

I don't care how many games the Flames win with Ward as head coach. A bad coach is still a bad coach.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by redforever

I don't care how many games the Flames win with Ward as head coach. A bad coach is still a bad coach.

interesting take.

Results dont matter when evaluating coaches.

Huh.

[timbit]

Which Flames head coach has the record for longest losing streak in team history? How may losses?


Was he fired?

Was he a first time NHL head coach?

Did the team make the playoffs that season?

How did they do in the playoffs?

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Versteeg pointing the finger at Ward. Says tactically he’s doing questionable things that are preventing players from getting into games and causing the slow starts and other issues.

Passive 1-man forecheck to start games specifically called out. Not putting players in positions to succeed (notes zone starts).

Versteeg also backed the players in the room.

Interesting. So we've had Button and Versteeg critical of the Flames coaching in the media world. If the mediocrity goes on I'm sure we'll hear more of that.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by timbit

Which Flames head coach has the record for longest losing streak in team history? How may losses?


Was he fired?

Was he a first time NHL head coach?

Did the team make the playoffs that season?

How did they do in the playoffs?

hah - and someone said I was bad for mentioning Ward in the same breath as Gallant (I wasn’t).

TBF, coaching was a different deal back then. They had a lot more backing vis-a-vis the players. That guy wasn’t liked by his team because he was tough on them, but management backed him for years.

[timbit]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

hah - and someone said I was bad for mentioning Ward in the same breath as Gallant (I wasn’t).

TBF, coaching was a different deal back then. They had a lot more backing vis-a-vis the players. That guy wasn’t liked by his team because he was tough on them, but management backed him for years.

I don’t think we’re talking about the same guy.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by transplant99

interesting take.

Results dont matter when evaluating coaches.

Huh.

I bet the same poster figures Hartley was great because he won 3 more PO games than Ward (in 4 years versus one).

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by timbit

Which Flames head coach has the record for longest losing streak in team history? How may losses?


Was he fired?

Was he a first time NHL head coach?

Did the team make the playoffs that season?

How did they do in the playoffs?

Badger Bob Johnson. 11 straight losses. Team made the playoffs and went on a Cinderella run to the finals. Was a first time NHL head coach but this was his 4th season. He wasn't fired, he resigned. Very different time, very different team, and very different situation. There are coaches for teams and teams for coaches. Johnson was actually the right guy at that time because they needed a teacher, a tactician, and a motivator.

[AustinL_NHL]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I bet the same poster figures Hartley was great because he won 3 more PO games than Ward (in 4 years versus one).

Everyone in the analytics community hated Hartley. I was especially mad at him winning the Jack Adams trophy because that was a season filled with incredible luck and unsustainable play. Forced Treliving's hand to keep him an additional year.

However, while his systems sucked, the one thing Hartley did incredibly well was motivate his players and send out a team that gave it their absolute all every. single. night. You would never question the Flames' work ethic when he was coaching.

Glen Gulutzan had a poor system in place his first year but had the Flames playing excellent hockey in the Playoffs (one of the most undeserved sweeps I've ever see). Come his second season, he adjusted his system to one that put the Flames in position to succeed but was a terrible motivator and also suffered some bad luck.

Bill Peters had a great system and played to the Flames' strengths his first year and then completely changed it after 5 games of it not working out.

Geoff Ward has a terrible system and is a terrible motivator. This is the most boring, uninspired hockey I've seen played from the Flames in I don't know how long.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by AustinL_NHL

Everyone in the analytics community hated Hartley. I was especially mad at him winning the Jack Adams trophy because that was a season filled with incredible luck and unsustainable play. Forced Treliving's hand to keep him an additional year.

However, while his systems sucked, the one thing Hartley did incredibly well was motivate his players and send out a team that gave it their absolute all every. single. night. You would never question the Flames' work ethic when he was coaching.

Glen Gulutzan had a poor system in place his first year but had the Flames playing excellent hockey in the Playoffs (one of the most undeserved sweeps I've ever see). Come his second season, he adjusted his system to one that put the Flames in position to succeed but was a terrible motivator and also suffered some bad luck.

Bill Peters had a great system and played to the Flames' strengths his first year and then completely changed it after 5 games of it not working out.

Geoff Ward has a terrible system and is a terrible motivator. This is the most boring, uninspired hockey I've seen played from the Flames in I don't know how long.

I questioned the team’s work ethic and effort under Hartley in both his first and last year.

I’m not an analytics guy, but it was pretty obvious both at the time and in hindsight that 2014-15 was a combination of luck, out of nowhere career years from a couple vets like Hudler and Wideman, good young players hitting an early stride (and the league not figuring out Johnny yet) and some really funky goaltending where neither Hiller nor Ramo were consistently good, but each had good stretches when the other sucked.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I questioned the team’s work ethic and effort under Hartley in both his first and last year.

I’m not an analytics guy, but it was pretty obvious both at the time and in hindsight that 2014-15 was a combination of luck, out of nowhere career years from a couple vets like Hudler and Wideman, good young players hitting an early stride (and the league not figuring out Johnny yet) and some really funky goaltending where neither Hiller nor Ramo were consistently good, but each had good stretches when the other sucked.

In Hartley's last year here, the Flames were still tenth in scoring.

Of course they were going to regress

Of course Hartley wasn't the best coach in the league

But he had elements of competency that were observable. I don't think we beat the Canucks in 2015 with Ward, Peters, or Gulutzan behind the bench, even with all fortune that you described. Hartley outcoached Desjardins in that series, simple as that. And then, yes, he got outtalented by the Ducks, there's no denying that, but it's not as if he was making idiotic decisions to shoot this team in the foot. But in each of the other three coach's playoff series (actual playoffs, not "vs a 9th seed missing their top center) our coaches have been thoroughly outcoached. Not outtalented. Just out x's and o's'd (or in Gulutzan's case, just an idiotic loyalty to that Bartkowski pair)

That's the frustration.

That a coach as mediocre as Hartley is the only coach we've had who can hang in there and still play chess with the other team's mediocre coach.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

In Hartley's last year here, the Flames were still tenth in scoring.

Of course they were going to regress

Of course Hartley wasn't the best coach in the league

But he had elements of competency that were observable. I don't think we beat the Canucks in 2015 with Ward, Peters, or Gulutzan behind the bench, even with all fortune that you described. Hartley outcoached Desjardins in that series, simple as that. And then, yes, he got outtalented by the Ducks, there's no denying that, but it's not as if he was making idiotic decisions to shoot this team in the foot. But in each of the other three coach's playoff series (actual playoffs, not "vs a 9th seed missing their top center) our coaches have been thoroughly outcoached. Not outtalented. Just out x's and o's'd (or in Gulutzan's case, just an idiotic loyalty to that Bartkowski pair)

That's the frustration.

That a coach as mediocre as Hartley is the only coach we've had who can hang in there and still play chess with the other team's mediocre coach.

I’m not defending Ward, Peters or GG. I’ve been lukewarm to cold on all those hires. And Desjardins was a bad coach, at least that year, we all agree on that. But Hartley IMO would have lost to almost any other team. The Flames lucked out tremendously on that draw. As I’ve said elsewhere, the Canucks had the 4th lowest points of any team in the POs yet they finished second in a really weak division, so they ended up playing the Flames. Their top 3 players were all 33 years old and well past prime. And they were weak in goal. Really - if you were aiming to upset a seed, they were it.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I’m not defending Ward, Peters or GG. I’ve been lukewarm to cold on all those hires.

I don't think anyone praising Hartley is praising him on an absolute level.

But relatively speaking, he was the best coach we've had since, at least probably Mike Keenan.

I will say that I don't believe the team "checked out" on him.
or Gulutzan.
or Peters.
probably not even Ward.

It's too easy to equate poor results with a team checking out.

And Desjardins was a bad coach, at least that year, we all agree on that. But Hartley IMO would have lost to almost any other team. The Flames lucked out tremendously on that draw. As I’ve said elsewhere, the Canucks had the 4th lowest points of any team in the POs yet they finished second in a really weak division, so they ended up playing the Flames. Their top 3 players were all 33 years old and well past prime. And they were weak in goal. Really - if you were aiming to upset a seed, they were it.

Maybe, but they still had 100 points.

Those 33 year olds still had a solid season. The Sedins were probably the best players in that series too.

They had solid goaltending. Whether from Lack or Miller.

They had a decent top pairing(their Edler Tanev pair was extremly stifling)

They were healthy.

They had holes, in particular their bottom two defense pairings, and Hartley exploited those holes with his forecheck strategy and line matchups.

They had a sizeable lead on the road in Game 6, and Hartley made all the right moves whether it was the goalie change or his line blender or shortening his bench.

And as untalented as that 2015 Hartley team was, they didn't systemically struggle to break out cleanly like the 2019 Flames against the Avs or 2020 Flames against the Stars. Yeah, the stretch pass was overused and a low-percentage play, but our breakouts the past two postseasons have been no-percentage plays. We had better breakouts with Kris Russell throwing blind passes around than we've had with guys like Giordano, Hanifin and Andersson the last couple of years.

[DeluxeMoustache]

I think there are just a lot of people here who are “bad breakuppers”

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I don't think anyone praising Hartley is praising him on an absolute level.

But relatively speaking, he was the best coach we've had since, at least probably Mike Keenan.

Hartley reminded me of Keenan in a lot of ways (although I think Sutter trumps both).

Neither one is known to be systems guys. Their whole deal was play to the strengths of individuals, and if those individuals succeeded, the team as a whole should succeed. Hartley admitted that they didn't practice the powerplay (I think Keenan was the same). The powerplay was a time to let your horses run and overthinking things that come naturally to skilled players can be detrimental to execution. I think this might be the same issue with Ward (not the PP specifically, but focusing too hard on minutia). Not sure what the system is, but the players look like they are overthinking a lot of the time and not executing as a result.

The only recent coach that obviously seemed to live and die by a system was Brent Sutter, and that team looked apprehensive every minute of the game. I mean sure, you need to teach players and keep them sharp to know the queues for when and where to apply certain tactics, but I thinks it's a mistake to emphasize a system over all else. I was surprised at the time, because Darryl Sutter was more like the latter two.

There is an old psychological trick in sports where you purposely get an opponent off their game by making them think too much. For example, say to an opponent something like this; "Hey, that was a really hard shot. I noticed your shot improved lately. Did you change your grip? What foot are you leading with?".

You would be surprised how much something like that can get someone off their game. If you are focused on minutia (like B.Sutter or perhaps Ward), or coaching toward stats (like I think Gulutzan tried), you're going to have players over thinking everything and it will affect execution.