The Deal With Geoff Ward

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by btimbit

lol was just thinking that

Isn't 'day to day for a while' just week to week?

Could even be LTIR depending how much a while is

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

You are making a huge assumption about his injury. It’s pretty likely he got hurt somewhat in his collisions, which could happen in any game.

The vast majority of CPrs wanted Markstrom in every time he was in. And the schedule favoured it.

We are down to criticizing Ward for how he announces injuries and on assumptions about a player with a history of injuries getting hurt.

I'm not criticizing Ward for how he announced the injury. I don't care how it's announced.

It doesn't makes much sense to suggest that the schedule favored Markstrom playing nearly every game either. The Flames were facing down playing 19 games between Jan 24th and February 27th. They had a bit of a break after game 3, but since game 4 it has been a really intense schedule. They have averaged less than a full day off between games since Jan 24th.

There was plenty of talk before Markstrom got injured that he was being overused.

[Buff]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

Could even be LTIR depending how much a while is

Waiting to hear of somebody going onto LTIR for a couple of days.

[Gaskal]

4th line barely got any ice time last night, I'm pleased.

Progress!

[BigErnSalute_16]

Originally Posted by transplant99

First bolded is patently false. I know this for a fact.

And he didnt reach into the minor leagues for Ward...he was already standing behind the bench of the team with a lot of NHL coaching experience on his resume, a winning record after being promoted to HC, and a series win against the Jets.

Keeping Ward was niether a stretch to see happen nor unexpected among NHL circles particularly with what was happening in the world.

Now...is Ward the right guy for this team or even any team? Who knows? There just isnt enough data to make that determination yet so its hard to say definitively either way. I would suggest that giving him at least a season worth of games would be the bare minimum before making a decision how good or bad he is.

I do know that there are, literally, years of data on the main guys pulling that jersey over their heads every game, and that data suggests they are not good enough to do much of anything more than what they have accomplished...or not accomplished.

As always its a results oriented business and both the coaching staff and the players should be judged on such...but you best have enough results to make a determination. We definitely have that on one side of this debate but certainly not on the other.....in my opinion.

People think I'm a "Coaching apologist" which to me is pretty funny. Im not. Moreso, and especially with this club i think some continuity/stability is imperative after the events of last year.

I do know that coaching is a pretty fluid type of profession where, if in the right spot with the right group, guys all of a sudden look like the next coming of Scotty bowman only to disappear in short order.

Other guys look like they couldnt coach a hungry dog across a room with a slab of roast beef in their hands at first, but given time lots of those guys see what they are preaching/selling start to be bought into by the players and eventually things start to click.

Treliving has made mistakes and to me the single biggest is the construction of this roster and he can blame no one but himself for that. Im leaning more towards his time here (while pretty good) is becoming clearly not god enough.

To just write everything off as "this core has proved they can't get it done" isn't quite fair in my opinion.

The 2015 team that beat Vancouver then lost in five (IIRC) to Annaheim wasn't ready. There are stats that back that up.

But 2017 when we were swept by the Ducks, I remember each game except for the last one as being a total toss up. Couple overtimes where anything can happen (just happened to go not go our way) and a late game collapse by Elliot cost us big time. If that series went seven nobody would have been surprised based on the first three games.

The Colorado series sucked but again I remember the Flames outplaying Colorado in two of the games they lost so again could have went another way easily just didn't.

Last year what were we like 30 seconds away from going up 3-1 on the Stanley Cup runner ups? and again Goaltending kind of failed us. I liked Talbot but when this team was in dire need of being bailed out by their Goalie he came up short.

Now, the closing games out and the lack of killer instinct definitely could be problematic but to say this team has proved they can't do anything in the playoffs is basically just looking at results without any of the context. Some bad luck, and inopportune goaltending moments has really cost this team in the playoffs.

But now we have that guy who can potentially bail this team out. And I think this team does have enough skill and depth to do some damage.

You put Markstrom on the Flames last year and they beat Dallas imo from there on, who knows. You put this markstrom on the Flames in 2017 agaisnt Annaheim and theres no chance they get swept and I think thats a 50/50 series. The roster is all in place now. If we are ever going to get actual proof of if this team can do anything in the playoffs, it's now.

What we don't have imo is a coach who can get the most out of these guys. That's the last piece of the puzzle and my biggest fear is that we waste this entire year seeing if Ward is the guy or not. Spoiler alert: he's not. Get him out, bring in a proven guy who can light a fire under these guys asses. Somebody is to blame for the constant slow starts and I say it's Ward. I don't think he has the respect of the players and it's hard to get motivated for someone who you don't respect.

However, whether or not the lack of respect is a player issue is a valid question. But imo the only two coaches in the last 7 years that demanded the respect of the players were Bill Peters and Bob Hartley. Coincidentally those guys coached the two most exciting versions of the Flames in recent memory.

Also I've always been a big Treliving supporter but I'm at the point now where I believe he's on the hot seat. It's do or die. If you aren't willing to do what needs to be done to push this team over the hump you don't deserve to be here anymore.

Fire Ward and bring in a proven head coach.

And find someone who fits better on the top line. I love Bennett and as much as I'd like to keep him around for the playoffs he might need to be part of the trade that brings someone in.

Forsberg would be a dream, Rakell would be a good fit and so would Granlund imo.

I think Granlund could be had without adding Bennett, Rakell would need to be Bennett+ imo and Forsberg would be a huge trade probably involving Bennett, Ryan and multiple 1sts/1st round prospects.

That's how I view this team moving forwards anyways. If Ward stays I think we see more of what we've seen. piss poor efforts night in night out with a complete effort sprinkled in just to rub it in our faces and keep that hope alive by reminding us of how good they could be.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

At Classic Sniper (still can't quote):


Q: Why doesn't the opponent get any credit in all of this?
A: Flames played a lousy Vancouver team that was reeling with a terrible start to the year, rumours about a GM getting fired, etc. Vancouver were not good, yet seemed to neutralize the team fairly effectively. Oilers - a terrible defensive team both on paper and on the ice (just look at their shots against and underlying metrics), and yet they were still able to basically neuter Calgary's offence. You are seeing different teams doing this to Calgary now. I would agree to give the opposing teams more credit than I am, but at the end of the day, this is a pattern that the Flames are going through, and this pattern stretches back for a while now. It is just getting worse.

As for Ward not wanting to break out slowly? No, I disagree here too. You can see it when the Flames take control of the puck in their own zone. SOMETIMES you will see a stretch pass attempt, but rarely do you see a fast break-out. Flames corral the puck, pass D to D, then to F, then to D again... It isn't the other team doing a great job hustling back, it is the Flames not attacking with speed the instant they get control of the puck.


Every team has bad games and bad stretches. Maybe you are right and this isn't the way Ward wants to play. I guess we will see this play out for a while longer and get a larger sample size. I, however, am convinced that what we see in terms of the breakout IS what Ward wants to happen. I hope I am proven wrong, or that Ward changes things up considerably - I will be happy with either as long as the Flames start attacking with more speed again and actually look interesting to watch again.


They enter too slowly to break the trap. Flames need to just mix it up more. Yes, not every time they take control of the puck can they just go out and attack - they could be tired and in need of a line change, or most of the opposing team is already playing it safe and are getting into position by then. There are different ways to break the trap - heck, lots of set plays, like firing the puck unexpectedly behind the red line and having a forward already racing to beat the icing. Try short passes, try stretch passes, dump and chase - but the problem is that the Flames are too often allowing the other team to get into position. That's not exactly my point.


My point is if the Flames are intent on coming out as a 5 man unit every time they take possession of the puck, then the opposing team has the relative luxury of getting set on defence, including trap hockey. The most effective way to beat the trap, is to attack before they are set. Confusion is what causes defensive breakdowns the most regularly, which leads to better scoring chances. Don't want to confuse your opponent? Then you better out-skill them - and that's whey you see players trying to dangle through too many players. Outwork them is fine too - but it is a tough deal to work that hard all season, especially when you are playing every other night with some back-to-backs interspersed throughout.


They don't always need to beat the trap. They just need to turn around and head the other way before the other team sets up the trap. That's most of my point.

Any team in any given night can beat any team in the NHL and trap helps bad teams beat more skilled teams. We’ve seen this throughout the NHL’s history, this is not new. The Flames are a skilled team now and they’re seeing this story playing out. The Canucks also beat the Flames in part because their identity is hard work and they outworked the Flames. The Oilers beat the Flames because they’re more skilled, McDavid took over the last game between the two despite his team being outshot nearly a 2:1 ratio. The Flames don’t have a McDavid type player. Similarly, Auston Matthews had a game earlier in the season where his team was being considerably outplayed by the Flames and he just took over with his skill and willed his team to victory, we don’t have an Auston Matthews.

As for the trap conversation, the Flames do try anything and everything. The players generally have full autonomy here, they play the game, they’re on the ice and they try different things. They try fast outlets, they make the long passes, but it often gets intercepted. All those turnovers we see, a lot of them are from the long passes. Sometimes Johnny Gaudreau can get behind defenses like I said, but he’s no expert on the breakaways as we’ve seen. The breakouts are what they are ultimately; with the trap, sometimes you get by them, sometimes you don’t. When they do though, that’s where the Flames are having the most trouble in my opinion. Their dump and chase game is completely ineffective at times. Too many one and dones. I’ve been adamant that this is personnel more than anything else. They’re not built for dump and chase and they’re not really good enough on the skill game either. They’re sort of stuck in the middle and that’s why they’re a middling team.

That’s the disconnect here ultimately in all of this. People watch and see the breakouts and assume it’s all on the coach. This game has so much read and react and I don’t know how it could ever be on the coach. This game is more about how you deal with pressure and puck pursuits and this team has a hard time with this aspect a lot of nights. They did a better job last night and played the style of game Ward WANTS. They looked faster and more cohesive. But that’s because Toronto plays like the Flames, they commit to a harder forecheck and are totally fine with opening up the middle of the ice which suits the Flames.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

I'm not criticizing Ward for how he announced the injury. I don't care how it's announced.

It doesn't makes much sense to suggest that the schedule favored Markstrom playing nearly every game either. The Flames were facing down playing 19 games between Jan 24th and February 27th. They had a bit of a break after game 3, but since game 4 it has been a really intense schedule. They have averaged less than a full day off between games since Jan 24th.

There was plenty of talk before Markstrom got injured that he was being overused.

Other people whined about the announcement.

A bit of a break? Markstrom had 3 games and then they had a week off, so basically they reset. After they restarted, Rittich played the 3rd game, Markstrom started two more and Rittich started again. No one was calling for Rittich after those first two starts. So, yeah, Markstrom got 7 starts in a row. And he went 4-2 until he had a terrible game against Vancouver, which is when I think he got dinged up.

Since then Rittich has started 2 games of 3. One planned, one maybe because of the injury, although arguably he would have started against Hutchinson anyway.

But the main point is that Markstrom’s injury may or may not because of overplaying and it’s foolish to just blame Ward when you don’t know, especially when he’s had a couple self-inflicted collisions, not to mention McDavid trying to run him over.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Other people whined about the announcement.

A bit of a break? Markstrom had 3 games and then they had a week off, so basically they reset. After they restarted, Rittich played the 3rd game, Markstrom started two more and Rittich started again. No one was calling for Rittich after those first two starts. So, yeah, Markstrom got 7 starts in a row. And he went 4-2 until he had a terrible game against Vancouver, which is when I think he got dinged up.

Since then Rittich has started 2 games of 3. One planned, one maybe because of the injury, although arguably he would have started against Hutchinson anyway.

But the main point is that Markstrom’s injury may or may not because of overplaying and it’s foolish to just blame Ward when you don’t know, especially when he’s had a couple self-inflicted collisions, not to mention McDavid trying to run him over.

It was 11 starts in 27 days before the wheels fell off, and 14 starts to Rittich's 2 in that same time. The 7 starts in a row was also a case of 7 starts in 14 days.

Of course we don't actually know what caused Markstrom's injury, but I'm saying it doesn't look good on Ward when he's riding his star goalie like that leading into him having a bad game, speculation that he's overplayed and tired, and him then getting injured. Injuries come easily when when the body is tired.

The issue is also not about what the fans wanted. I'm saying it looks bad for Ward because player management is his responsibility. The fans don't make roster decisions. That's entirely Ward's decision, and in retrospect it looks questionable. Playing a goalie much more than he's used to and him getting injured naturally raises questions as to the relationship between the injury and the volume of games played in a short time.

[GioforPM]

Markstrom has started about the same numbers as most other starters. Less than a couple. The same as 5, one more than a bunch of others. And most of them didn’t get a one week break.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

That’s the disconnect here ultimately in all of this. People watch and see the breakouts and assume it’s all on the coach. This game has so much read and react and I don’t know how it could ever be on the coach. This game is more about how you deal with pressure and puck pursuits and this team has a hard time with this aspect a lot of nights. They did a better job last night and played the style of game Ward WANTS. They looked faster and more cohesive. But that’s because Toronto plays like the Flames, they commit to a harder forecheck and are totally fine with opening up the middle of the ice which suits the Flames.

This is wrong IMO. The breakouts are coached and CGY is going strong side of the ice and up the boards. It is problematic. They have to open up the break out and be more creative.

Good teams look flawless and effortless when breaking out and CGY look rushed and in some cases paniced (Leivo going up the right - head down put a short pass behind the centre. The answer is not Leivo is a bad player it's just too concentrated on one side players feel pressure). Many times it looks forced. It's easy to defend against that.

TOR in the latter part of game was able to easily breakout against CGY forecheck because they had 4 guys go back to retrieve (they are not clogging neutral zone). They are coached like that. TOR play compact and have confidence to make those short passes.

Now TOR is a confident team and expect to win. CGY got up and perhaps feeling a little fragile were kind of defensive so that may have factored in.

Not trying to take anything away from win last night but CGY breakout looks way different than TOR and of course skill is involved but it is coaching. If you watch how they move it is coaching, the routes etc. Once it's in the offensive zone yeah read and react (but coaching too).

[timbit]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Any team in any given night can beat any team in the NHL and trap helps bad teams beat more skilled teams. We’ve seen this throughout the NHL’s history, this is not new. The Flames are a skilled team now and they’re seeing this story playing out. The Canucks also beat the Flames in part because their identity is hard work and they outworked the Flames.

That’s the disconnect here ultimately in all of this. People watch and see the breakouts and assume it’s all on the coach. This game has so much read and react and I don’t know how it could ever be on the coach. This game is more about how you deal with pressure and puck pursuits and this team has a hard time with this aspect a lot of nights. They did a better job last night and played the style of game Ward WANTS. They looked faster and more cohesive. But that’s because Toronto plays like the Flames, they commit to a harder forecheck and are totally fine with opening up the middle of the ice which suits the Flames.

Astute and accurate observations.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Markstrom has started about the same numbers as most other starters. Less than a couple. The same as 5, one more than a bunch of others. And most of them didn’t get a one week break.

Seems like you're making the point for me. The break was very early, then it has been very condensed play since then. Based on what you say, take three games away from everyone (to account for the three games Markstrom had before the break), and Markstrom would then have played the same number of games as most others +/-1, but he would have done it in one fewer weeks.

Also my point was about how it looks for Ward. Markstrom being overworked was discussed more than once on game broadcasts leading into the time he got injured. It looks bad.

Anyways, pointless debate is pointless...

[Canada 02]

According to TSN, there are 5 free agent coaches at the end of this season, including Green, Tocchet, and Brind A’mour

Would be funny if Tre also poached the Nucks coach

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by timbit

Astute and accurate observations.

I would have said some were okay, others overly simplistic and largely wrong IMO. Coaches actually teach and strategize. Nobody thinks that every breakout happens exactly as the coach draws it up, that would be daft.

Of course the game involves reading and reacting, but when you have the puck, your own players aren’t standing around with their thumbs up their butts waiting to see what you do. They are going to the right place to support you.

They definitely do work on their breakouts, and give players advice on how to deal with the other team’s play. They sure as heck can tell the weak side D to find open ice to give options and play with speed. (And Gio did use Rasmus cross ice vs Toronto, I believe on the entry that led to the ES goal)

Note as well that Toronto doesn’t play the style that gives Calgary’s breakout particular problems

Calgary had a good compete level but won that game not due to ES play which was pretty even but due to special teams and Rittich

Better in many ways but not good enough. The players have the skill to win with high compete but could play a more threatening and effective style

Also, Toronto can be seen at times just having the Center head straight forward down the middle with wingers wide. It’s fun to watch. They play a style better suited to their talent

[blender]

Originally Posted by Canada 02

According to TSN, there are 5 free agent coaches at the end of this season, including Green, Tocchet, and Brind A’mour

Would be funny if Tre also poached the Nucks coach

Drance mentions the possibility in a recent Athletic column.

Or teams on the other side of the Rockies that double as popular destinations for recent ex-Canucks and are now on their fourth consecutive head coach who is either a) clearly in over their head, or b) a person of indefensible low character.

[FlamesAddiction]

It's funny though, because when Gulutzan was in Vancouver as an assistant, Greene was coaching the Canucks farm team in Utica.

I recall distinctly a news story in Vancouver that mentioned the Flames had interest in Gulutzan and Greene, but never did end up reaching out to Greene after talking to Gulutzan.

Treliving sure like sniffing around Vancouver it seems. Hey, what's Willie Desjardins up to these days?

[1qqaaz]

I like Boudreau because his team average over 104 points per season in almost a thousand games coached. Third all time (among coaches with 300+ games) after Bowman and Cooper.

I don't even see the point of talking about guys like Gulutzan, Ward, Peters, Hartley, etc. when Boudreau has been available for a year.

Well apparently Claude Julien is available now. Interesting. He's obviously in Canada as well.

Apparently Boudreau is very interested joining the Kraken.
I hate them already.
He obviously doesn't want to retire.

[ComixZone]

Versteeg pointing the finger at Ward. Says tactically he’s doing questionable things that are preventing players from getting into games and causing the slow starts and other issues.

Passive 1-man forecheck to start games specifically called out. Not putting players in positions to succeed (notes zone starts).

Versteeg also backed the players in the room.

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I recall distinctly a news story in Vancouver that mentioned the Flames had interest in Gulutzan and Greene, but never did end up reaching out to Greene after talking to Gulutzan.

Wasn't that because Vancouver wouldn't let them because they were grooming Greene to be the future head coach?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Inferno

Wasn't that because Vancouver wouldn't let them because they were grooming Greene to be the future head coach?

That’s what I read (here) just yesterday.