The fall of Monahan, and the fall of the Flames

[Red]

Originally Posted by New Era

Don't see much difference. What exactly has changed?



Please expand on this. Monahan has played a much more engaged game, a defensively responsible game, and has been solid in both ends of the ice. Not a shooter now because he is playing higher in the offensive zone to be the first forward back. So he's the passer on the line and has been just as successful in that role as being the shooter. What exactly was your expectation?



Wow, picked a player that hasn't been in the NHL for over a decade and then almost two decades since he achieved that plateau. Fedorov hadn't scored 30 goals since the lockout, when the game changed dramatically, so again a player that no longer existed in the league. Fedorov was a great player and one we haven't seen in almost two decades. Probably what made him a great player and Hall of Famer.

I think we set the bar so low that when Monahan takes 2-3 strides with the puck on his stick we are in awe and get ideas that he has somehow become a different player.
He does carry the puck more this year but that may be the result of the system they play. It's not just JGs job to enter the zone.

But even if it's not, his zone entries are nothing to write home about. Often times he dumps it in and turns it over. Again, may not be his fault, it may be the system.

To me it's all very similar, Monahan does not want the puck on his stick until it's near the net. That's his go to and he is great at it.

I mentioned this the other day, why can't Monahan power through to the net like Mangipane did when he scored that beauty vs Vancouver ? Don't just dump it in, skate to the net and shoot. That's how you make the D back off and you make room for others.

It's a huge part of the game that all good centres have. He isn't just bad at it, that part of the game is completely missing from him. I have never seen him do that.

[TheSquatch]

Yeah that's not his game, he's too slow in the first place. Monahan is the Garbage Man, it's a perfect knickname because that's how he scores. It's not a bad thing - his knack for scoring from a postage-stamp sized piece of open ice in the slot is wonderful.

But a power game? No. That's not him.

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by New Era

Don't see much difference. What exactly has changed?



Please expand on this. Monahan has played a much more engaged game, a defensively responsible game, and has been solid in both ends of the ice. Not a shooter now because he is playing higher in the offensive zone to be the first forward back. So he's the passer on the line and has been just as successful in that role as being the shooter. What exactly was your expectation?



Wow, picked a player that hasn't been in the NHL for over a decade and then almost two decades since he achieved that plateau. Fedorov hadn't scored 30 goals since the lockout, when the game changed dramatically, so again a player that no longer existed in the league. Fedorov was a great player and one we haven't seen in almost two decades. Probably what made him a great player and Hall of Famer.

Considering the top line and PP ice time, I expect higher output

Is my expectations too much?

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Kovaz

This is really the crux of the issue. There's a colossal difference between a 70-80 point C who's a liability defensively and in transition, and a 70-80 point C that's a factor in all three zones. If playing defence consistently makes Monahan a 40-50 point player that tells you a lot about how he was scoring those points.

Except at no point did he become better defensively. He just stopped scoring points for a while

[2macinnis2]

Originally Posted by New Era

Don't see much difference. What exactly has changed?.

Sorry, should have been more specific. Seems significantly slower the last 2 years. Less likely to win battles. Shot less dangerous. Basically playing like I would expect for someone who has a bad back, which again is what I fear he has chronically.

He also seems to miss games for vague maintenance that you don’t typically see young players miss.

Look I’ve watched a lot of these young guys... JG, Tkachuk, Lindholm. Monahan is the only one to me who looks like he has had an actual physical regression.

[Classic_Sniper]

Monahan’s downfall has everything to do with the way opposition teams are playing him. Sort of like James Neal in a way, you keep a man on him, keep a good gap and he’s neutralized. On the flip side, you let Monahan and Gaudreau play run and gun and it’s lights out, that duo will kill you ever time. Problem is, there’s a book on the Flames now and teams are exploiting it. Clog the middle and there’s no answer.

Another issue is. Monahan’s shot is good, but not elite, that’s why he scores most of his goals in front of the net. If he had a little bit more Ryan Smyth in him he’d probably be able to dig and hound the front of net better. But alas, that is not his game.

Some of the positives is that he’s been a better playmaker this season and there is more noticeable push back in his game. He’s harder on his one vs one match ups, but I’m not sure that’s actually translated to less goals against. He just really needs to start burying on the chances he gets, because this team needs goals from him more than anything else right now. The process without the production doesn’t show up on the scoreboard.

[browntrout]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Why are we comparing Monahan to first ballot HOF players?

Monahan is the 90th highest paid player in the NHL. That means he is either paid to be the worst 3rd best player in the league for a team or the best 4th best player. (Assuming equal distribution of players vs pay to all the teams)

This is the issue with the Flames. People expect Monny and JG to be 2 superstars driving the team when in reality they should be the 3rd and 4th best players on the team dictated by their pay.

MT is our highest payed played at 68th overall.

The Flames do not have any players paid like a top 2 for a team. And that is our biggest issue. We do not have the top end talent AND we do not have 3/4th line
depth.

Were not top heavy OR deep. It is a horrendously constructed team when looking at where money is spent.

You nailed that, if this team had better depth on their 3rd and 4th lines...then it's a playoff team, but do not expect Gaudreau, Tkachuk, or Monahan to lead them to the promise land, they simply are not that good

[Vinny01]

When I look at where this rebuild has failed it really comes down to players not hitting their ceilings. It wasn’t crazy to think we had a potential franchise center in Monahan based on his first few years in the league. In 2019 he finished slightly above ppg with 82pts in 80 games but there was a point mid season where he was projecting to score over 40 goals and 100pts before he seemingly fell off a cliff he hasn’t climbed out of.

There was a time I believed Gaudreau was going to be a superstar that would be battling McDavid for scoring titles. He was by far one of the best and most exciting players on team North America and was 6th in league scoring as a sophomore. Like Monahan in 2019 he was looking to be in that discussion again. A Hart Trophy candidate pacing to over 120pts at times but ended at 99 still a very good year finishing 7th in scoring.

Bennett flopping has been beaten to death but a critical blow to this rebuild. I would also say that Hanifin is a guy who has underwhelmed in relation to the hype he had coming into the league. While he is improved he had hype where he should be in the same conversation as a Seth Jones but he is more of a 3/4 D than 1/2. Having said that he played 3 years with the Canes prior to the Flames and after 3 years he wasn’t trending in that direction.

We will see where Matthew Tkachuk ends up this year. He has struggled offensively over the last 7-8 games but he looks to be coming on. 34 goals 76pts at 21, leading scorer at 22 still seems to be on track to be captain but does he have the ability to score 40 and be a ppg or better? He scored 34 and had 76pts as a 21 year old.

Lindholm was acquired after 5 seasons where he seemed to be an established steady 15 goal 45pt guy. There was upside there but he took off. He has completely passed Monahan in terms of value and has justified being picked one spot ahead. He can play center or wing and has turned into 25+ goal scorer hovering around a ppg playing in all situations. Absolute core piece.

It really felt like this team had enough high picks with high ceilings to contend and in 18/19 it really felt like it was all coming together. Once they were embarrassed in the first round the team has regressed in a big way. Monahan is not viewed as a legit number 1 center on a good team, Johnny is not a top 10 scorer. Tkachuk hasn’t really taken a step forward. Now it look like this group is not going to be good enough to contend.

[DeluxeMoustache]

^ they have the skill on the roster, just the wrong guy driving the bus

[timbit]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

^ they have the skill on the roster, just the wrong guy driving the bus

What did the “skill” players contribute to winning last night?

Each of them, 5-7 million per annum.

They drive the bus, IMO. They play the most minutes.

I understand the frustration with the coach, but the top players need to be way more accountable and play with more pride.

[Sandman]

Further to Vinny's point, imagine if Poirier and Klimchuk turned out, along with Mony? That was supposed to be the most important draft in Flames history.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Sandman

Further to Vinny's point, imagine if Poirier and Klimchuk turned out, along with Mony? That was supposed to be the most important draft in Flames history.

I think the management team would agree with you.

Feaster drafted:
Monahan(6), Poirier(22) and Klimchuk(28)

Treliving then traded for:
Lindholm(5), Lazar(17), Rychel(19), Shinkaruk(24)

Lots of busts there unfortunately but I remember a lot of hype for several of those prospects during the lead up to that draft.

[CSharp]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Flames are averaging exactly one goal per game without Monahan in the lineup this season.

Unfortunately, it seems like Flames may be averaging 1 goal a game with him on the bench (being hurt and/or totally disappearing) during the playoffs as well. So, that pattern seems to jive with his recent injury.

[Sandman]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

I think the management team would agree with you.

Feaster drafted:
Monahan(6), Poirier(22) and Klimchuk(28)

Treliving then traded for:
Lindholm(5), Lazar(17), Rychel(19), Shinkaruk(24)

Lots of busts there unfortunately but I remember a lot of hype for several of those prospects during the lead up to that draft.

Yeah, if we had a crystal ball back in 2013, I guess we would have hoped for Burakovsky or Theodore-but I was sure excited to grab Poirier, and he gave us a few good years of hope....

[NewFan]

Yes, I'd like old Monahan than today's one. He tries to become more 2 way Centre, but I don't see that. He tries to play more to body in D zone. Other than that he looks lost in D zone most of time.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by Sandman

Further to Vinny's point, imagine if Poirier and Klimchuk turned out, along with Mony? That was supposed to be the most important draft in Flames history.

The problem was that going into that season it wasn't. The team expected to compete and didn't. So they didn't have any picks outside of their own first in the first 3 rounds.

In a dedicated rebuilt teams have a couple of drafts where you have 7 picks in the first three rounds. The Flames never really did that. They got those firsts for selling Iginla and Bouwmeester, but nothing else in that draft. The next year they had an extra second round pick but couldn't sell anything else.

So when you consider that outside of Monahan and Bennett those two drafts yielded nothing else, it didn't get the rebuilt off to a very good start. Even one or two guys who could play in the bottom 6 may have saved other pieces used to plug holes.

[blender]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

The problem was that going into that season it wasn't. The team expected to compete and didn't. So they didn't have any picks outside of their own first in the first 3 rounds.

In a dedicated rebuilt teams have a couple of drafts where you have 7 picks in the first three rounds. The Flames never really did that. They got those firsts for selling Iginla and Bouwmeester, but nothing else in that draft. The next year they had an extra second round pick but couldn't sell anything else.

So when you consider that outside of Monahan and Bennett those two drafts yielded nothing else, it didn't get the rebuilt off to a very good start. Even one or two guys who could play in the bottom 6 may have saved other pieces used to plug holes.

Totally agree.
Could have had the knock on effect of preventing a Brouwer signing or Hamonic trade.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by timbit

What did the “skill” players contribute to winning last night?

Each of them, 5-7 million per annum.

They drive the bus, IMO. They play the most minutes.

I understand the frustration with the coach, but the top players need to be way more accountable and play with more pride.

The coach is not a brilliant tactician equipping them to succeed

The players can skate more proudly into a 2 on 4 but it’s still a 2 on 4

[timbit]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

The coach is not a brilliant tactician equipping them to succeed

The players can skate more proudly into a 2 on 4 but it’s still a 2 on 4

You must be a football fan and not near the hockey tactician that you believe you are.

Read and react , based on concepts and principles, decides player decisions under good coaching.

Again, not a static game.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by timbit

You must be a football fan and not near the hockey tactician that you believe you are.

Read and react , based on concepts and principles, decides player decisions under good coaching.

Again, not a static game.

Lol. You couldn’t be more wrong. Hockey is the perfect sport.

I can watch football because I am a dude and can watch and appreciate any sport (and pick a preferred team in any game), also respect a lot of what it is, but in reality, could not give 2 ####s about football

Swing and a miss, friend

You do know that hockey teams have strategies, I hope. Lol