The fall of Monahan, and the fall of the Flames - Page 3 - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

Flamesfan05 · 02-21-2021, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tkflames

If you want me to argue that Monahan is comparable to 1st ballot hall of famers...we are wasting both of our time. He is not that. In my view he is a 1st line center that is giving up regular season scoring to round out his game.

I am not

I am responding to the guy that said Sakic/Yzerman won late in their career.

I am arguing that is not a good comparison. First as you said, they are HOF.
Second, they were not regressing when they won the CUP. They were still the best in the league.

SuperMatt18 · 02-21-2021, 11:34 AM

The other big thing is you usually need two first line quality centres to win in this league -

Sakic didn’t win until he had Forsberg
Yzerman didn’t win until he had Fedorov
Crosby likely doesn’t win without Malkin
Washington didn’t win until they had Backstrom AND Kuznetsov

Hell even Gretzky never won without Messier, and Lemieux never won without Francis.

Problem is Monahan-Bennett never turned into that 1-2 Center punch, and I’m not sure Monahan-Lindholm will be ever be good enough because then we are too weak on the wing.

Flamesfan05 · 02-21-2021, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

The other big thing is you usually need two first line quality centres to win in this league -

Sakic didn’t win until he had Forsberg
Yzerman didn’t win until he had Fedorov
Crosby likely doesn’t win without Malkin
Washington didn’t win until they had Backstrom AND Kuznetsov

Hell even Gretzky never win without Messier, and Lemieux never won without Francis.

Problem is Monahan-Bennett never turned into that 1-2 Center punch, and I’m not sure Monahan-Lindholm will be ever be good enough because then we are too weak on the wing.

While you are at it, Monahan is none of those guys. He cant even be compared to the 2nd guy.

jlh2640 · 02-21-2021, 11:36 AM

Interesting thoughts. I’m not sold that Monahan was ever elite or top ten. But he was good. Something has happened to him. Mentally for sure. Physically maybe but he is who he is. He’s not an elite Center man. I would trade him ASAP and get anything you can for him. Because I’m not sure he has any real value anymore.

SuperMatt18 · 02-21-2021, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

While you are at it, Monahan is none of those guys. He cant even be compared to the 2nd guy.

Also very true.

One thing about the Flames is in our franchise history we’ve probably only ever had one HHOF quality Center on this team long term - Joe Nieuwendyk (9 seasons), and one who we had shorter term - Doug Gilmour (4 seasons).

Unfortunately you usually need at least one of those guys on a roster to win a Stanley Cup, and most of the time two (as listed above). Really we’ve never drafted early enough to get that guy, or have missed in the draft when one was there.

So that right there is a big reason this franchise is mediocre, tough to be a great franchise when Joe Nieuwendyk, Doug Gilmour, Kent Nilsson, and Sean Monahan are the four best centres in the Franchise’s history.

Bonded · 02-21-2021, 11:42 AM

If Monahan has no trade value then neither does the majority of the league.

2macinnis2 · 02-21-2021, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jlh2640

Interesting thoughts. I’m not sold that Monahan was ever elite or top ten. But he was good. Something has happened to him. Mentally for sure. Physically maybe but he is who he is. He’s not an elite Center man. I would trade him ASAP and get anything you can for him. Because I’m not sure he has any real value anymore.

Yeah I think this is fair counter argument. Maybe I was overestimating Monahan’s potential/trajectory back at the start of the 2018 season. His numbers really were excellent to that point though and he was centering one of the best (if not THE best) line in hockey through that season. There really shouldn’t be any reason why he would drop to being a less dangerous center than a player like Schiefle or ROR. But maybe he never really was that good, and certainly people back then also argued against him being a top 10 center.

Either way, whether he’s damaged physically or just not that great, I don’t see it being possible for the Flames to be that great if this version of Monahan is your top center.

On the contrary someone mentioned Bennett. He is obviously a huge bust, and never flashed anything like Monahan did (even as a rookie for Monahan).

Flamesfan05 · 02-21-2021, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Also very true.

One thing about the Flames is in our franchise history we’ve probably only ever had one HHOF quality Center on this team - Joe Nieuwendyk.

Unfortunately you usually need at least one of those guys on a roster to win a Stanley Cup, sometimes two (as listed above). Really we’ve never drafted early enough to get that guy, or have missed in the draft when one was there.

So that right there is a big reason this franchise is mediocre, tough to be a great franchise when Joe Nieuwendyk, Kent Nilsson, and Sean Monahan are probably the three best centres in the Franchise’s history.

The year we won the Cup, we had Nieuwy and Gilmour. Fit the 2 centers you mentioned.

Also dont forget we had Otto, while not elite was a defensive and faceoff beast

SuperMatt18 · 02-21-2021, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

The year we won the Cup, we had Nieuwy and Gilmour. Fit the 2 centers you mentioned.

Also dont forget we had Otto, while not elite was a defensive and faceoff beast

Duh, how did I forget Gilmour.

Fixed post above.

Flamesfan05 · 02-21-2021, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Duh, how did I forget Gilmour.

Fixed post above.

Yeah and when it's all done, I would say Monahan sits with Conroy and Langkow.

SuperMatt18 · 02-21-2021, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

Yeah and when it's all done, I would say Monahan sits with Conroy and Langkow.

Agreed, better offensively then those guys but not as good of a 200ft player. Monahan would get the edge in terms of longevity and peak if I had to rank but they are comparable.

I honestly think the hope was Monahan-Bennett would develop to be the new Nieuwendyk-Gilmour, as there are lots of similarities in those guys games. But unfortunately it just didn’t work out and they didn’t develop as we hoped.

powderjunkie · 02-21-2021, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

Agreed but also keep in mind part of the point total going down was league wise.

The year he got 155pts, the league leader had 199
The year he got 82 pts, the league leader had 130

Scoring went down drastically starting in the mid 90s

Yup, each year Yzerman won a cup with the Wings, the league set a new low for GPG since 1970

Goriders · 02-21-2021, 12:16 PM

Monahan can’t skate much better than Lucic and a kid in U12 can knock him over.

He’s our number 1 center. I think that’s the real problem.

codynw · 02-21-2021, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Meet 2x Selke winner, and perennial 30-goal center Sergei Fedorov.

https://www.nhl.com/player/sergei-fe...hl&season=null

I mean there's also Patrice Bergeron for a present day example. If he wins anymore Selkes they're gonna have to rename the trophy after him.

Hey Connor, It's Mess · 02-21-2021, 12:28 PM

Monahan would be a dangerous scoring-threat winger without having to worry about the defensive responsibilities of playing centre. He's not good at carrying or distributing the puck through the neutral zone despite this being such an important attribute for modern centres.

He isn't fast. He rarely hits. He's not a puck hound in corners or scrambles. His faceoffs are mediocre.

That ship sailed a long time ago, however. Our terrible centre depth has necessitated he stay there.

Monahan - Lindholm - Gaudreau
Tkachuk - Backlund - Mangiapane
Simon - Bennett - Dube
Lucic - Ryan - Don't Care

DoubleK · 02-21-2021, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Meet 2x Selke winner, and perennial 30-goal center Sergei Fedorov.

https://www.nhl.com/player/sergei-fe...hl&season=null

Doesn't really count. Fedorov played in the clutch and grab era. Much easier to backcheck then than it is now.

Iggy Snipe · 02-21-2021, 01:01 PM

Monahan is not the problem. He is a piece Calgary needs to keep.

He would be one of the best 2nd line centres in the NHL.

The guy is good. He needs to be coached to his strengths, and he needs coaches to stop trying to make into something he not.

He needs to be put into positions to shoot the puck, and shoot it a lot. This is not happening because of the coaching, and the system he is playing.

He has not shot the puck less than right now, and he's not getting a ton of good chances. I remember when Monahan would get chances in the slot all the time, and his goal totals reflected that.

Monahan is part of the solution.

TheChief · 02-21-2021, 01:24 PM

ill tell you what happened to him, things were going well then...

He got destroyed by Getzlaf X2

That was the end of Monahan as we know it.

GioforPM · 02-21-2021, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Struch

People said Joe Sakic was too soft to win the Cup.
(until he wasn't, in his 8th season)

People also said Steve Yzerman wasn't good enough to lead his team to the Cup.
(until he did, in his 14th season)

I don’t recall anyone saying that about Sakic. Yzerman famously changed his game and became a 2 way player. It helped that he finally got help offensively in Detroit.

Lanny_McDonald · 02-21-2021, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2macinnis2

New Era, honest question: production aside, does Monahan look physically to you as the same player he was in 2014-2019?

To me he does not, that was my original point.

Don't see much difference. What exactly has changed?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

Well, when I said both I mean excellent at one and adequate at the other. Not excellent at both. Right now he is good at one and terrible at the other.

Please expand on this. Monahan has played a much more engaged game, a defensively responsible game, and has been solid in both ends of the ice. Not a shooter now because he is playing higher in the offensive zone to be the first forward back. So he's the passer on the line and has been just as successful in that role as being the shooter. What exactly was your expectation?

Quote:

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Meet 2x Selke winner, and perennial 30-goal center Sergei Fedorov.

https://www.nhl.com/player/sergei-fe...hl&season=null

Wow, picked a player that hasn't been in the NHL for over a decade and then almost two decades since he achieved that plateau. Fedorov hadn't scored 30 goals since the lockout, when the game changed dramatically, so again a player that no longer existed in the league. Fedorov was a great player and one we haven't seen in almost two decades. Probably what made him a great player and Hall of Famer.