Flames Identity Crisis

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Not sure that's the case. Only three players remain from the roster that he inherited.

Backlund, Giordano and Monahan.

Another player is inherited that wasn't on the roster ... Johnny Gaudreau.

He's drafted Matthew Tkachuk, Rasmus Andersson, Andrew Mangiapane, Dillon Dube, Juuso Valimaki, Sam Bennett.

He traded for Elias Lindholm, Noah Hanifin, Milan Lucic.

Signed Chris Tanev, Jacob Markstrom, Josh Leivo, David Rittich, Connor Mackey, Derek Ryan, Dominik Simon.

I don't think doing "nothing" is a fair representation of what's gone on.

Fair enough, the roster he inherited had the most successful playoff run in his tenure. Then he started fixing the team and putting his mark on it and over the past 6 years there are 20 teams who have won at least one playoff series and Calgary is not part of that group. It is likely more accurate to say that Brad does not know how to build a winner.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Fair enough, the roster he inherited had the most successful playoff run in his tenure. Then he started fixing the team and putting his mark on it and over the past 6 years there are 20 teams who have won at least one playoff series and Calgary is not part of that group. It is likely more accurate to say that Brad does not know how to build a winner.

Yeah that's certainly a valid opinion.

I don't share it, but it's valid. At least we now agree he didn't do "nothing".

I think he's assembled teams that I like on paper (GM's job), that hasn't gotten it done on the ice.

So that is on the players or on the GM for hiring the wrong coaches. Suspect it's a bit of both.

[flambers]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I think that's next.

If that core is only Backlund, Monahan and Gaudreau then sure. I think he's tried.

But otherwise, pretty much everything has changed. I don't consider Lindholm and Mangipapane "depth".

I would think the core group of forwards are Tkachuk, Gaudreau, Monahan and Lindholm.

Backlund is a checking center not a core piece in my view.

Mangiapane and Dube while they are not depth forwards are not in the core as of yet.

For sure, Lindholm is a change that occurred.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Yeah that's certainly a valid opinion.

I don't share it, but it's valid. At least we now agree he didn't do "nothing".

I think he's assembled teams that I like on paper (GM's job), that hasn't gotten it done on the ice.

So that is on the players or on the GM for hiring the wrong coaches. Suspect it's a bit of both.

As a comparison, the Flames have 4 players out of their roster who played a NHL game in the 13/14 season. For the rest of the North Division that similar number is

Vancouver - 1
Edmonton - 2
Winnipeg - 2
Toronto - 1
Montreal - 2
Ottawa - 0

There are some teams in the NHL that have made fewer changes (Tampa has 6 of the same players) but those are successful teams that win. It is probably more accurate to say any GM that has 7 years with a team, or any team over 7 years will turn over most of their roster. BT just changed over less of his roster than the majority of NHL teams.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

As a comparison, the Flames have 4 players out of their roster who played a NHL game in the 13/14 season. For the rest of the North Division that similar number is

Vancouver - 1
Edmonton - 2
Winnipeg - 2
Toronto - 1
Montreal - 2
Ottawa - 0

There are some teams in the NHL that have made fewer changes (Tampa has 6 of the same players) but those are successful teams that win. It is probably more accurate to say any GM that has 7 years with a team, or any team over 7 years will turn over most of their roster. BT just changed over less of his roster than the majority of NHL teams.

For sure.

But I didn't start with the notion that GM has done nothing, right?

He has kept three to some teams having kept two or one.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Bingo

For sure.

But I didn't start with the notion that GM has done nothing, right?

He has kept three to some teams having kept two or one.

Well he has kept 4, Johnny even scored a NHL goal before BT arrived. He has kept 4 to other teams 2 or 1.

You are correct, you did not start with he has done nothing, I did. But he has done far less than any other organization. Another factual correct statement is that everyone did something over the past 7 years. There is not a franchise that has the same players now as then.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Well he has kept 4, Johnny even scored a NHL goal before BT arrived. He has kept 4 to other teams 2 or 1.

You are correct, you did not start with he has done nothing, I did. But he has done far less than any other organization. Another factual correct statement is that everyone did something over the past 7 years. There is not a franchise that has the same players now as then.

He's done less than any other organization?

A statement like that will require a lot more than just counting bodies of any impact/skill level on each roster and calling it a day.

You could count "impact" players going in and out on every team I guess, but that's subjective.

Maybe by salary of $4M or greater in and out?

Would be quite a project.

Hasn't been proven today though.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

They are so slow through the neutral zone, it's like fireworks go off when a player rushes from one blueline to the other without at least two players waiting to cross the line in the exact same step with him. There has not been one stretch pass all season, except for one Johnny breakaway. It's sllllloooooowwwww.

When was the last time anyone can clearly remember a two on one break for the Flames, that wasn't a broken play?

Well what do you want? Slow players, slow team. Johnny is the quickest of the bunch so he’s the only one who can be relied on to get breakaway chances even though he stinks at them (self admitted). I wouldn’t be expecting a Milan Lucic or a Sean Monahan or a Matthew Tkachuk to be going in one on one vs the goalie on any given night. That’s usually blue moon stuff.

But regardless, the breakouts appear slow, sure. But we’re not giving the opposition enough credit here. They’re clogging up the neutral zone and forcing the team to break out slowly or worse, the Flames are turning pucks over left, right and center. They’re forcing plays rather than finding the right play. It could ironically be their skill that’s causing this problem. They believe they can make the play, but next thing you know, 20 foot pass, boom, intercepted.

This team just isn’t that skilled to play the way they want, they don’t have that big #1 center who can make it easier to transition up the ice. So really, they only have one option and unfortunately it’s going to be to slow things down. Take what the defense gives you, stop running into the pile of bodies, be patient, find the open ice and get working. Harder said then done with this personnel though.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Well what do you want? Slow players, slow team. Johnny is the quickest of the bunch so he’s the only one who can be relied on to get breakaway chances even though he stinks at them (self admitted). I wouldn’t be expecting a Milan Lucic or a Sean Monahan or a Matthew Tkachuk to be going in one on one vs the goalie on any given night. That’s usually blue moon stuff.

But regardless, the breakouts appear slow, sure. But we’re not giving the opposition enough credit here. They’re clogging up the neutral zone and forcing the team to break out slowly or worse, the Flames are turning pucks over left, right and center. They’re forcing plays rather than finding the right play. It could ironically be their skill that’s causing this problem. They believe they can make the play, but next thing you know, 20 foot pass, boom, intercepted.

This team just isn’t that skilled to play the way they want, they don’t have that big #1 center who can make it easier to transition up the ice. So really, they only have one option and unfortunately it’s going to be to slow things down. Take what the defense gives you, stop running into the pile of bodies, be patient, find the open ice and get working. Harder said then done with this personnel though.

Because what we're doing is a) too slow, and b) too predictable

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Major Major

You are right that there is much we do not know. Systems, what is going on in the room, the general attitude of the team, who would even come in to coach this group today if they could, are the GM's hands tied?

So let's focus on what we do know. This coach has made significant lineup blunders that have had lasting consequences. These blunders are plainly obvious to an outsider. The last one was painful to watch and ended up in our net 90 seconds into the game. Rittich in the playoffs is another one, the handling of Bennett another and there are many more. We know these are screwups because boy it sure seemed like it at the time and they have blown up in his face. We are where we are. So you'r sitting there in the room and the guy who's leading you who is supposed to be one of the best in the world is a screw up who makes bad judgement calls, great.

The roster that Brad built is limited in so many ways, but you know what, has shown they can be pretty good if the direction isn't confusing coming from a confusing guy. Again, if they are sitting there wondering if they should be playing more offensively or more defensively or whatever this supposed split is, the coach blows. That's kinda his area. And when Rhett says that some guys wanted to play run and gun and some guys wanted to play more defensively, the coach blew then too. That's his job.

This team also has mental limitations and they aren't motivated by the player's coach thing. It needs a straightforward hardass type where there will be no confusion. Hello Darryl, I say. He would actually take the burden off our wonderful team of mental little people. They no longer need to worry about all this identity crisis BS. They would just be Darryl's guys and they'd just need to pull on the rope and get a few blisters. I honestly think it would be a massive relief for them because the discussion around this team has gotten pretty batty. Darryl's identity gets into the room 10 minutes before his belt buckle does.

What if it doesn't work? Great, it's a teardown. Boom, easy. If it goes really sideways, they might even get a good pick out of it. But it would be better than whatever this #### is.

Darryl Sutter had his time here, he found a great goalie, had a magical run which was fantastic, but he the. followed that up by building this team into a perennial bubble playoff loser. I’m not sure Darryl is the long term answer here. The 2004 team had no egos, limited skill, but a ton of heart. His Kings team had a future hall of fame #1 center and a #1 defensemen and a lot of big heavy bodies. They could barely make the playoffs at times, but were built for the playoffs.

This Flames team is none of those things I mentioned. I’m not even sure where Darryl Sutter would begin. It would probably end up a lot like Ken Hitchcock’s tenure with the Oilers. Hall of fame coach, comes in, changes some things, says some stuff, still fails.

This Flames team isn’t confused like you’re saying in my opinion, they’ve been playing a similar system for years now. Even Glen Gulutzan’s system wasn’t too far off from Peters/Ward. This is ultimately just a semi-skilled, lazy group of players with with no pride or ability to initiate. They’re playing a system (a very prevalent system I might add) that requires hard work and diligence, but they’re not up for the challenge because they’re a bunch of Dime a Dozen Divas.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Because what we're doing is a) too slow, and b) too predictable

What exactly is so slow if you don’t mind me asking? Like, is there not enough mustard on some of these passes? Do they need to sit down and ponder about the next plays they need to make? What exactly is this team doing to themselves that’s causing this perceived slowness? I don’t understand.

The goal of every player/every team is to do things as fast as possible. Your shift is often less then a minute long, there’s no time to dilly dally. You break up a play, you find the best or easiest outlet and you break out of your zone. This isn’t rocket science here.

But it’s not grade 1 math either, the other team has a say too and they’re not going to make it easy, so they forecheck too to force turnovers and bad decisions. They drop back and put a wall up and dare you to get past them. Of course the Flames are going to break out slow, it’s not because they want to, it’s because they have to. You don’t sprint through a field of mines, you have to tip toe around it. Honestly, anyone who’s telling me that the Flames have 100% control in all of this has tunnel vision, you’re only paying attention to one side.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

What exactly is so slow if you don’t mind me asking? Like, is there not enough mustard on some of these passes? Do they need to sit down and ponder about the next plays they need to make? What exactly is this team doing to themselves that’s causing this perceived slowness? I don’t understand.

The goal of every player/every team is to do things as fast as possible. Your shift is often less then a minute long, there’s no time to dilly dally. You break up a play, you find the best or easiest outlet and you break out of your zone. This isn’t rocket science here.

But it’s not grade 1 math either, the other team has a say too and they’re not going to make it easy, so they forecheck too to force turnovers and bad decisions. They drop back and put a wall up and dare you to get past them. Of course the Flames are going to break out slow, it’s not because they want to, it’s because they have to. You don’t sprint through a field of mines, you have to tip toe around it. Honestly, anyone who’s telling me that the Flames have 100% control in all of this has tunnel vision, you’re only paying attention to one side.

Winger standing still on the half wall, is the primary breakout strategy.

Any turnover in, or near, their own end usually results in D to D passes to 'set things up'.

There are more, but these are the primaries. Everything they do is slow and deliberate. It makes defending easy.

As to the bold, no it's not because they have to, it's because that is their systems. They literally choose to slow it down.

Of course the other team has a say in what happens - everyone understands that. But when you see the team doing something over and over, it is because that is what they are being told to do.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Well he has kept 4, Johnny even scored a NHL goal before BT arrived. He has kept 4 to other teams 2 or 1.

You are correct, you did not start with he has done nothing, I did. But he has done far less than any other organization. Another factual correct statement is that everyone did something over the past 7 years. There is not a franchise that has the same players now as then.

Counting Johnny is a bit misleading. The kid played one game at the end of the year to make sure they got him signed to an NCAA contract.

IMO the better comparison is looking at the first real playoff failure this team had in 16-17, which would have been the first indication that maybe this core needed a change and wasn't good enough to win.

Current Flames that were on that 16-17 roster that played 10+ games that year:

Gaudreau, Monahan, Backlund, Tkachuk, Bennett, and Giordano.

So 6 players still on the roster from that season. Both goalies, the entire d-core outside of Giordano, and over half of the forward group have been changed over in the 4 seasons since getting swept by the Ducks.

Compare that to players that played on North Division teams that season (10+ games):

Winnipeg - 10: Morrissey, Lowry, Ehlers, Wheeler, Scheifele, Perreault, Copp, Little, Hellebuyck, Connor

Edmonton - 9: McDavid, Draisaitl, RNH, Kassian, Larsson, Russell, Nurse, Puljujarvi, Klefbom (IR)

Montreal - 7: Danault, Byron, Petry, Weber, Lehkonen, Gallagher, Price,

Toronto - 6: Hyman, Matthews, Nylander, Marner, Rielly, Andersen,

Vancouver - 4 : Sutter, Horvat, Edler, Eriksson

Ottawa -0: (This isn't a good thing)

So I'd honestly say the Flames have turned over the roster pretty well and are in line with other teams.

I certainly wouldn't want to be Ottawa who don't have a single player left from those teams. Even Vancouver would probably like it if they still had Markstrom and Tanev from that season on their roster still.

You can argue they haven't made that one "Big" change (one of Gio, Monahan, Gaudreau) to the core to move out one of the longest term pieces but Treliving has made a lot of changeover otherwise and this roster looks nothing like the roster we had in 16-17 or even 17-18, and really he did make a big core change when he moved out Hamilton and didn't bring back Brodie (mistake was not trading Brodie for assets but anywho).

Edit: I'm more curious now so decided to expand to the other playoff teams from 16-17.

Eastern Conference:

1) Washington - 8: Wilson, Orlov, Kuznetsov, Ovechkin, Backstrom, Eller, Carlson, Oshie,
2) Pittsburgh - 6: Crosby, Malkin, Letang, Rust, Guentzel, Dumolin
3) Columbus - 9: Atkinson, Foligno, Werenski, Jones, Dubinsky, Jenner, Savard, Bjorkstrand, Harrington
4) Montreal - 7: detailed above
5) New York -3: Kreider, Zibanejad, Buchnevich
6) Ottawa - 0 detailed above
7) Boston- 7: Marchand, Pastrnak, Krejci, Bergeron, Carlo, Miller, Rask
8) Toronto - 6 detailed above

Western Conference

1) Chicago - 3: Kane, Toews, Keith,
2) Minnesota - 6: Suter, Parise, Spurgeon, Dumba, Brodin, Eriksson Ek
3) Anaheim - 7: Getzlaf. Rakell, Silfverberg, Fowler, Lindholm, Manson, Gibson
4) Edmonton - 9: Detailed Above
5) St.Louis - 6: Tarasenko, Schwartz, Parayko, Barbashev, Bortuzzo, Sanford, (plus Perron left and came back)
6) San Jose - 7: Burns, Couture, Vlasic, Hertl, Lebanc, Meier, Jones,
7) Calgary - 6: Detailed Above
8) Nashville - 10: Arvidsson, Johansen, Forsberg, Josi, Ellis, Jarnkrok, Ekholm, Sissons, Rinne, Saros

So really only teams that have went full rebuild (Ottawa, NYR, Chicago) have changed over their roster more than the Flames among playoff teams from 16-17.

So doesn't look like the Flames have "done far less than other organizations" as you have stated. I've mentioned this in another thread but the trade market and lack of trades in the NHL is not a Brad Treliving or a Calgary Flames problem. It's an NHL in general problem, and if anything Treliving has been more active than other GMs. Teams that have committed to "re-tooling' like Minnesota, Anaheim, & San Jose have as many players left from that season on their roster as the Flames do. The fact is in the NHL high salary players on big contracts just don't move that often and you rarely see "hockey trades".

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Bingo;7745822[/B

Yeah that's certainly a valid opinion.

I don't share it, but it's valid. At least we now agree he didn't do "nothing".

I think he's assembled teams that I like on paper (GM's job), that hasn't gotten it done on the ice.

So that is on the players or on the GM for hiring the wrong coaches. Suspect it's a bit of both.

Do you think Brad has built a winning team in the last 6 years?

I will concede he has done something, if you take 16/17 as the starting point he has. I was wrong on that point and concede it.

On paper he has somewhere between the 3rd and 5th best group of forwards on paper in the North Division, he has a top 3 defence and one of the top 2 goalies in the division. There is a pretty significant gap up front between the Flames and the Leafs for instance On paper it looks like a team that should make the playoffs and be first round fodder for someone to me. I am not sure on paper it looks like a winning lineup. I have a hard time looking at the Flames on paper and credibly thinking they are a top 10 team in the NHL or even a top 2 team in the North.

I feel he has not and does not know how to build a winner. On that I guess we disagree, you feel he has built a winner or can build a winners.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Do you think Brad has built a winning team in the last 6 years?

I will concede he has done something, if you take 16/17 as the starting point he has. I was wrong on that point and concede it.

On paper he has somewhere between the 3rd and 5th best group of forwards on paper in the North Division, he has a top 3 defence and one of the top 2 goalies in the division. There is a pretty significant gap up front between the Flames and the Leafs for instance On paper it looks like a team that should make the playoffs and be first round fodder for someone to me. I am not sure on paper it looks like a winning lineup. I have a hard time looking at the Flames on paper and credibly thinking they are a top 10 team in the NHL or even a top 2 team in the North.

I feel he has not and does not know how to build a winner. On that I guess we disagree, you feel he has built a winner or can build a winners.

We're pretty much coming to an agreement.

I think building hockey teams is difficult, and the biggest issue with this team not being a contender is the lack of playoff ability of what should have been the team's best two players.

If they continued on their projection the team would have two star players, and the addition of depth around it.

So there is plenty to poke at with any GM, and Treliving has his mistakes. But I have for the most part seen what he's been trying to do, and it made sense to me.

Some of the parts plateaued which I didn't see coming either.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Do you think Brad has built a winning team in the last 6 years?

I will concede he has done something, if you take 16/17 as the starting point he has. I was wrong on that point and concede it.

On paper he has somewhere between the 3rd and 5th best group of forwards on paper in the North Division, he has a top 3 defence and one of the top 2 goalies in the division. There is a pretty significant gap up front between the Flames and the Leafs for instance On paper it looks like a team that should make the playoffs and be first round fodder for someone to me. I am not sure on paper it looks like a winning lineup. I have a hard time looking at the Flames on paper and credibly thinking they are a top 10 team in the NHL or even a top 2 team in the North.

I feel he has not and does not know how to build a winner. On that I guess we disagree, you feel he has built a winner or can build a winners.

If we are comparing to the Leafs forwards let's consider they have
- Austin Matthews: Franchise forward drafted #1 overall
- Mitch Marner: Franchise forward drafted #4 overall
- John Tavares: Franchise forward that chose to sign in his home town

Says a couple things
- Highlights why Sam not working out has been so damaging to the re-build
- Add Matthews and Tavares to the Flames, who were acquired via means not available to Calgary - and things look pretty damn good.

Do you think that the Leafs' GM has performed better than the Flames' GM? Or did they simply have more favorable circumstances.

[SuperMatt18]

I hate to say it because I think it makes it seem like all the blame is on Sam Bennett which is not the case.....

But Sam Bennett not becoming the impact forward that his draft position should have delivered is the biggest set back to the Flames rebuild.

Even if we get Nylander or Ehlers level of production out of that spot we are probably in a much better position. Hell you could argue Bennett not working as intended actually starts the domino effect that leads us to signing James Neal.

Treliving actually kind of made up for that draft miss by turning a first and two seconds into Hamilton and then Hamilton + Ferland into Lindholm and Hanifin but it still stings.

It’s funny that for Calgary (Bennett), Edmonton (Puljujarvi), and Vancouver (Juolevi) it might be a draft miss from a similar spot in the draft that set back their team.

[rooster]

Originally Posted by TheSquatch

Key cogs in this dilemma (to my eyes) are Monahan not being especially fast or especially mean, and the Bennett pick not producing a bona fide game changer.

Yes, and Kchucks skating is terrible. He really needs to work on it. I will put money down Lucic could whip his ass in a race. All our "leaders" are too nice and laid back. Time for a some mo*&^%$#ckers like Perry or Getzlaf.

[Jiri Hrdina]

^Vancouver blew two of them: with Virtanen (over Nylander and Ehlers) and Juolevi

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

^Vancouver blew two of them: with Virtanen (over Nylander and Ehlers) and Juolevi

True and going back further Yakupov for Edmonton