Flames Identity Crisis

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Teroy

I think his lack of production is due to his commitment to defence and having to play with Gaudreau. Trading Monahan won't change anything. If you want to change the culture of this team, trade Gaudreau.

Yeah, the cultural problem on the team must be our best player who has shown effort in pretty much every game this year 🙄.

Monahan's lack of production is because of playing with Gaudreau. That's an all time classic statement right there.

[Groot]

Two seasons ago the team played a fast, uptempo and exciting style of hockey that was offense-focused, had the team aggressively attack the puck in the defensive zone and move the pick up the ice quickly to gain the zone and generate chances off odd-man rushes. This led to one of the best regular seasons in franchise history.

Unfortunately, Peters was throughly out-coached in the playoffs, as the Avs had the perfect system to stifle the Flames aggression in the Dzone and fast transition to generate a crazy amount of odd-man rushes and grade A chances the other way. Peters had no answer to the Avs system, and we all know the result.

The next season the team looked different. The exciting uptempo style was gone, replaced by a more plodding transition, less aggression in the dzone (keep the puck to the outside), and a more formulaic gain possession and cycle offense. It reflected in most players as this defense-first style was not geared to the skills of the players.

Then Peters was fired. I still remember the Athletic article that interviewed Ward after taking over. He said that he wouldn't be changing the system too much as that's what the team has been playing with all season thus far, and last year they tried a offensive-style of hockey and look how that turned out. It was reading this where I began to lose hope. The embaressment by the Avs caused them to completely revamp the system to defense first rather then identify how to counter what the Avs put into play against us in the playoffs. As the saying goes, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. They absolutley should have continued the same base system that led to 2nd in the leauge and tweaked it as needed based on opposition.

I firmly believe that any "success" last year or this year is because we have skilled players and it is in spite of the systems the Peters put in place after the Avs loss and Ward simply continued with. This team now has better personnel then two years ago, and it is inexcusable at this point that the coaching is so bad.

Now I don't know systems as well as NHL coaches (neither does Ward *zing*) but this is the first time I remember as a fan where I'm just completely deflated. I have zero hope in turning this around until new coaching is brought in. And by that time we'll be having to rebuild anyway.

I honestly believe that the answers are in the room, and this team does have the horses to make noise in the playoffs. We just need competent coaching now to bring that back out, as we saw 2 years ago.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by DazzlinDino

Any coles notes for those of us who can't catch it?

I’m crappy at that. Just a rant that the problems run deep. The only blameless person in the organization is #25. He had quite the snipe at Tkachuk leaning on his stick watching the goal last night. Gio’s lack of seeming anger over the results every night. Monahan’s seeming disinterest. Ward’s questionable decisions. The bad offseason by the GM where the supposed forward depth he brought in has been abysmal.

I guess in summation, no reason to believe the team is very good. But they should still be good enough to be a playoff team.

[blender]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Everyone is sort of a puzzle piece in the grand scheme of things and Brad Treliving unfortunately brought the wrong puzzle to the party. It’s too difficult and no one is having fun.

I haven't been following this thread as closely as I'd like, so forgive me if I'm slow on the uptake here, but if you are suggesting that the system is too complicated and unforgiving then you are articulating my feelings exactly.

[RedHawk12]

Rhett's rant on the radio was eye-opening. Definitely worth a listen and highly recommended. I find that I'm in total agreement. It really doesn't matter what the team chooses as their identity. They just need to be all pulling in the same direction which is clearly not happening. His example with the 07/08 Flames and the defense vs. offense thing hits it right on the head.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by RedHawk12

It really doesn't matter what the team chooses as their identity. They just need to be all pulling in the same direction which is clearly not happening. His example with the 07/08 Flames and the defense vs. offense thing hits it right on the head.

And yet, it only makes sense to implement a system that is well suited for the players currently on the team. Ward is trying to fit a square peg into a round hole and it just isn't working because it can't. At some point you can't really blame the players for getting frustrated.

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by Groot

Two seasons ago the team played a fast, uptempo and exciting style of hockey that was offense-focused, had the team aggressively attack the puck in the defensive zone and move the pick up the ice quickly to gain the zone and generate chances off odd-man rushes. This led to one of the best regular seasons in franchise history.

Unfortunately, Peters was throughly out-coached in the playoffs, as the Avs had the perfect system to stifle the Flames aggression in the Dzone and fast transition to generate a crazy amount of odd-man rushes and grade A chances the other way. Peters had no answer to the Avs system, and we all know the result.

The next season the team looked different. The exciting uptempo style was gone, replaced by a more plodding transition, less aggression in the dzone (keep the puck to the outside), and a more formulaic gain possession and cycle offense. It reflected in most players as this defense-first style was not geared to the skills of the players.

Then Peters was fired. I still remember the Athletic article that interviewed Ward after taking over. He said that he wouldn't be changing the system too much as that's what the team has been playing with all season thus far, and last year they tried a offensive-style of hockey and look how that turned out. It was reading this where I began to lose hope. The embaressment by the Avs caused them to completely revamp the system to defense first rather then identify how to counter what the Avs put into play against us in the playoffs. As the saying goes, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. They absolutley should have continued the same base system that led to 2nd in the leauge and tweaked it as needed based on opposition.

I firmly believe that any "success" last year or this year is because we have skilled players and it is in spite of the systems the Peters put in place after the Avs loss and Ward simply continued with. This team now has better personnel then two years ago, and it is inexcusable at this point that the coaching is so bad.

Now I don't know systems as well as NHL coaches (neither does Ward *zing*) but this is the first time I remember as a fan where I'm just completely deflated. I have zero hope in turning this around until new coaching is brought in. And by that time we'll be having to rebuild anyway.

I honestly believe that the answers are in the room, and this team does have the horses to make noise in the playoffs. We just need competent coaching now to bring that back out, as we saw 2 years ago.

The Avs series is a microcosm of exactly what's going on with the team. They actually looked effective against the Avs in game 1 even though they needed an elite goalie performance. They drove and hounded the net and played fearlessly.

The Avs beat them at their own game in game 2, and because of that and the intimidation of MacKinnon's speed the Flames retreated into a passive, defensive fetal position rather than continuing with what would've given them a chance. Never understood why they didn't just stick with what gave them success all that year. They just up and completely transmuted overnight at the most important time.

We saw the same type of game from them early have slowly fallen off back into that passive, reactive default that they'll be hard pressed to win half their games playing.

There needs to be a new default for them. Even if they #### up a lot doing it, making quick and organized transition the absolute priority from game to game will win them many more than this.

Ownership biting the bullet and green lighting Treliving to bring in Gallant right now would pay such massive dividends over the next few seasons. He coached precisely the system and style I envisioned for this team.

Why are we even wasting another minute with this coaching experiment is beyond me, unless they already know the proven candidates have no interest in the gig.

Obvious move is painfully obvious.

[David Struch]

Originally Posted by RedHawk12

Rhett's rant on the radio was eye-opening. Definitely worth a listen and highly recommended.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/960/boomer-morning/

[RedHawk12]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

And yet, it only makes sense to implement a system that is well suited for the players currently on the team. Ward is trying to fit a square peg into a round hole and it just isn't working because it can't. At some point you can't really blame the players for getting frustrated.

I've seen this idea in many iterations and I just cannot accept that the problem is that simple. Like seriously...people think that the divide in the room is Ward + Lucic vs. the core of the Calgary Flames?? I'm going to give Tre the benefit of the doubt here and say that if that was the problem, it would have been the easiest decision Tre has had to make as GM. And let's say Tre for some reason did choose to stick to Ward + Lucic, then a few of the core players would be gone by now and more core players would have been brought in to fit Ward's style.

I think the more likely scenario is there are core players on both sides of the divide here. Maybe it's Tkachuk + Bennett (who want to play crash and bang) vs. Johnny and Mony (who want to play high tempo). I'm just speculating here. But I'm guessing when there is a divide in the room, it's usually not coach vs. the core. Like for example, now we know the Iginla era Flames had a divide between Kipper and Reggie (defense first) vs. Iggy and Tangs (offense first).

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by RedHawk12

(who want to play crash and bang) vs. (who want to play high tempo)

I'm not so sure Ward's system is either of these.

[Harry Lime]

Ward's system and Gully's system is painfully the same. It works in junior as a teaching tool, and it works with unskilled teams to slow down the game and prevent defensive gaffs. Enter the zone as a unit and set up before attacking. That's it.

The only guy with a green light is Gaudreau, which might not really be a green light because he is the last guy carrying the puck most times, which means the rest of the team sits at a standstill at the blueline waiting. It's a boring brand of hockey.

[Major Major]

When we are talking about a divide in the room in how guys envision the team playing, are we not talking about coaching? Frankly, bringing up Iginla vs Regehr as Rhett does this morning just hits home the point that they've had the same GD problem for 15 years. Do you think there is any question of how the team played under Sutter? Do you think it was a conversation at the end of the game? I wanna play like this, no I wanna play like this! The team ran Playfair, Keenan, Brent, Glue Gun and now Geoff Ward.

How could you look at what Ward has done and have any confidence that he can set the direction for the team? He just keeps bungling. It is the same, flimsy ass milk toast players coach themselves that has permeated this team for the better part of 2 decades. If Sutter came in and the talk in the room was, "these guys are too rough and those guys aren't defensive enough and this group doesn't like the coaches breakout so they do their own..."

Fire his ass and bring in someone that the players know by reputation that they will buy in or they will be punted into the sun.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

And yet, it only makes sense to implement a system that is well suited for the players currently on the team. Ward is trying to fit a square peg into a round hole and it just isn't working because it can't. At some point you can't really blame the players for getting frustrated.

It’s more like Treliving chose the type of coach and the type of system that he wanted. The biggest problem that I see on the horizon is that even if you gave this particular roster the ideal system they’d like to play, they’d probably still lose a lot because there’s going to be team’s who are just more skilled then the Flames. There’s no game breakers here. There’s no elite #1 centers.

This team relies on their depth and ironically, their depth is probably the main reason they can’t score worth a damn right now. This is a bottom 10 offense as of right now.

[Harry Lime]

A 'skill game' is a rather loose term. This team (from my viewpoint) is built on quick transition and sustained pressure in the offensive zone. The main problem on the ice right now is a glacial transition. If they moved to the more open style, they would give up more rushes defensively going the other way (as seen in the Colorado series), but upgrading the goaltending substantially and the footspeed on defense with Valimaki, Kylington and Hanifin should have alleviated some of that worry. Stopping rushes at the offensive blueline, or dumping to grind the corners are killing the team.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Major Major

When we are talking about a divide in the room in how guys envision the team playing, are we not talking about coaching? Frankly, bringing up Iginla vs Regehr as Rhett does this morning just hits home the point that they've had the same GD problem for 15 years. Do you think there is any question of how the team played under Sutter? Do you think it was a conversation at the end of the game? I wanna play like this, no I wanna play like this! The team ran Playfair, Keenan, Brent, Glue Gun and now Geoff Ward.

How could you look at what Ward has done and have any confidence that he can set the direction for the team? He just keeps bungling. It is the same, flimsy ass milk toast players coach themselves that has permeated this team for the better part of 2 decades. If Sutter came in and the talk in the room was, "these guys are too rough and those guys aren't defensive enough and this group doesn't like the coaches breakout so they do their own..."

Fire his ass and bring in someone that the players know by reputation that they will buy in or they will be punted into the sun.

Who’s even available at the moment? How much does this coach even differ than any other coach right now? What even defines a good coach, past success? If that’s the case, then it’s really a chicken or the egg theory: does the coach make the players or do the players make the coach?

I’m probably one of the few people here who believes the players on this team are the bigger problem than the coach. This isn’t like a video game where we control the players’ movement and what plays to make or when to take a shot. This is mostly on the players, they’ve played the game long enough to know what success and failure looks like. Why is it mostly on the coach if a player doesn’t show up to play? If that player isn’t motivated enough by his ice time and his production and ultimately his money, then this guy doesn’t even deserve an NHL job.

The system in my opinion is on the GM. He interviewed the candidates, he picked the coach that would play out his vision and I believe it’s Brad Treliving that picked this complicated and overtaxing system for the group of players he has assembled. It requires hard work and a lot of attention to detail which this roster can’t care enough to pull off most nights. That’s unfortunately on Treliving. I know he’s a likable GM, very hard working and he has done a lot of good things, but it’s ultimately his vision and there’s been very little to no progression since the day he was basically hired.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

A 'skill game' is a rather loose term. This team (from my viewpoint) is built on quick transition and sustained pressure in the offensive zone. The main problem on the ice right now is a glacial transition. If they moved to the more open style, they would give up more rushes defensively going the other way (as seen in the Colorado series), but upgrading the goaltending substantially and the footspeed on defense with Valimaki, Kylington and Hanifin should have alleviated some of that worry. Stopping rushes at the offensive blueline, or dumping to grind the corners are killing the team.

What does this even mean, “quick transition?” Don’t you have to defend well and/or successfully navigate through the other team’s forecheck/backcheck/trap in order to even attempt a “quick transition?”

This team is already playing a very aggressive style to not only create offensive chances, but to sustain offensive zone possession. The actual problem is that they’re too aggressive at times, or they’re too careless with the details at other times or they’re simply not winning enough 50/50 plays which when combined, equates to the opposition getting all kinds of easy counter attacks while the Flames collectively shoot themselves in the foot.

[Manhattanboy]

The next 48 hours should tell us a lot about this iteration of the Flames. Part of me thinks we should sit Markstrom and Tanev for both games against EDM so the results are not the least bit skewed.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

It’s more like Treliving chose the type of coach and the type of system that he wanted. The biggest problem that I see on the horizon is that even if you gave this particular roster the ideal system they’d like to play, they’d probably still lose a lot because there’s going to be team’s who are just more skilled then the Flames. There’s no game breakers here. There’s no elite #1 centers.

This team relies on their depth and ironically, their depth is probably the main reason they can’t score worth a damn right now. This is a bottom 10 offense as of right now.

Johnny is an elite scorer IMO, at least in the regular season. He's one of the few Flames this year who has been bringing it on a nightly basis.

We lack a true #1 center, but we have a number of good #2 centers in Monahan, Lindholm, Backlund. I wonder if moving Mony to RW to set up a Johnny-Lindy-Mony line would ever be a thing the team considers doing?

On the back end we have a couple of good d-pairings, albeit not elite.

We have one of the best goaltenders in the game right now, arguably THE best.

A good team on paper, certainly better than a .500 team. With quality coaching, I definitely could see this team compete for top spot in the North. However, with lousy coaching, look forward to more .500 hockey the rest of the way.

[Harry Lime]

They are so slow through the neutral zone, it's like fireworks go off when a player rushes from one blueline to the other without at least two players waiting to cross the line in the exact same step with him. There has not been one stretch pass all season, except for one Johnny breakaway. It's sllllloooooowwwww.

When was the last time anyone can clearly remember a two on one break for the Flames, that wasn't a broken play?

[DeluxeMoustache]

Absolutely, so slow through the neutral zone. Often because the other team has set up and they don’t like what they see, which further slows them down

How many times have you seen this? A winger like Tkachuk is stationed at the far blue line for the long pass chip. One of these things happens
- Stretch pass to him, he is covered and chips it in, then they have to chase, but he’s the guy chipping it in to his own corner and standing still, so Calgary is beat to the puck and it is cleared easily.
- He keeps the puck, is closed on and turns it over
- They skate it up to him with no weak side option and the other team closes on them to force a turnover

Flames need to use the whole ice better