The Deal With Geoff Ward

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

The Flames under Sutter were far from a slow team.

Donovan, Reinprecht, Neiminen, Glencross, McAmmond, Nilson, Conroy, Lombardi, Gelinas, Saprykin, Iginla, Lundmark, Kobasew, Leopold, Ritchie, Loyns, Amonte, Tanguay, Freisen, Boyd, Nystrom, Bourque.

They range from pretty fast, to very fast. I am sure there are more. He seemed to like fast players and acquired quite a few.

I would say the Flames under Sutter's reign were a much faster team than what we have now.

Half these guys didn't even play together you are taking all the decent skaters from a decade of Flames teams. 04 Flames were not very fast it was a much different game though

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by New Era

Yes, the game has continued to change and evolve. It is a younger players game that relies more on speed and transition. You can't get by on playing the lumbering smash mouth game synonymous with Sutter hockey. You need speed and you need to move the puck quickly. Dump and chase with a reliance on crash and bang is no recipe for success in the NHL these days.


Tell me, what is "Sutter Hockey"? Either you didn't believe me or you didn't read what Darryl specifically said about the Flames and how they played under Gulutzan - namely that they have to be a fast transitioning team.





So, who on this team is Kopitar, Carter, Brown, Clifford, Lewis, Penner, King, Fraser, Nolan, Regehr, Muzzin, or Greene? Smallest guy on the team was Richards who is average size on this team.

Pretty easy to turn a team around when you have that talent level on it too.


Point taken on the size front - but also, just maybe, perhaps... Sutter can actually change a system to suit the personnel on the team?

Also, if it was so easy to turn a team around, why were they flailing and looking like their rebuild was about to go to version 2.0? He was a 'hail mary' hire as a last-ditch effort by Lombardi. It worked.




What makes me think otherwise? Take a look at this roster. Take a look at the rosters that Sutter has put together. Sutter likes size and physicality. This team is small and can't play dump and chase to save their lives. They would fail under Sutter because he would try and get them to play that game, and then when they didn't he'd sit the small guys for Robinson, Ritichie, and Leivo. Good lord, Sutter is the antithesis of a coach for this team.

1) They are playing dump and chase hockey now
2) What makes you think that he will make this team play dump and chase? I take him on his word that teams need to play a fast transition style.

That relied on dump and chase hockey and grinding out the opposition.



There are other coaches available. I'd take Gallant over Sutter every day of the week and twice on game days. Gallant has shown he can adapt to the talent he has while Sutter makes the team in his own image. The game has passed Sutter by.

The Flames transition poorly because they are schooled to continually move the puck against the flow. Fix this minor issue and this team improves 1000%. Anyone with half a brain can see this.

I don't mind Gallant, and he has shown a rather short track record of exceeding expectations and having his teams work hard too. He has nowhere near the reputation of Darryl or his accomplishments, however. I will be fine if the Flames hire him, but I know I would be worrying about why exactly this great coach who seems to get teams turned around gets fired rather quickly.

Might as well bring Conroy out of retirement and see if Iggy wants to put the band back together too. The game has passed Sutter by. To play his brand of hockey would require a massive retool and we don't have the assets to go through that mess. Not sure if you haven't noticed, but the Flames have drafted small skilled players, not the ice boxes on skates Sutter likes. Bringing Sutter in would be a disaster and move the entire organization backward.


You keep saying this... repeatedly "The game has passed him by". It wasn't so long ago that he won 2 cups. He is very much a 'modern era' coach by an measure given that he has won 2 cups in the modern era. You may not like him, but he has more than proven the notion that the game passing him by was completely erroneous, and all the analysts and community at large that piled on all have egg on their face.


Again, I am sure that Darryl is much more than a one-trick pony, and is actually smart enough to figure out that a small team can't play smash-mouth hockey. Have you heard him talking about coaching methodologies?


I loved Darryl as a coach here in Calgary. I thought he would do well in LA, but even I didn't expect him to win 2 cups out of the deal. I thought of him as a heck of a coach, but SOMEWHAT like you, needs that 'big strong team' to coach that compliments 'his style'. Listening to him analyze different teams in the NHL and dissecting what they were good at was a bit of a revelation to me.


Mabye he would flop here if hired. I don't know - nobody does - but point is that this team is not successful, and it is much easier changing a coach than the core, especially mid-season. I would feel better getting a coach with experience - especially with a track record of fixing exactly what seems to ail this Calgary roster at the moment - before deciding to move out important core pieces. I don't feel comfortable doing that when this team has had inexperienced coach after coach. Bring in one good coach - anyone with a track record - for the remainder of the season and just see if this team shows both an uptick in their wins, and an uptick in the actual game play.

And for heaven's sake, make it more fun to watch!

Nobody that is available right now is not without their warts.


Gallant gets fired rather quickly for some reason.
Boudreau's teams always seem to disappoint, especially in the playoffs, and he has coached some exceptionally talented rosters.
Darryl is seen as a dinosaur for some reason (though I don't think so myself).



I can't think of anyone else with any kind of a track record in the NHL that is available... Hartley I guess fits my bill as experienced, Stanley Cup Winner, and has teams that exceed expectations, but that's something that will never happen (for sure in Calgary, and likely to never happen at all in the NHL period). The list of candidates are small, and they all really have their warts.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Half these guys didn't even play together you are taking all the decent skaters from a decade of Flames teams. 04 Flames were not very fast it was a much different game though

04 Donovan, Lombardi could skate. Nilson was OK, McCammond could skate (just not in the post season LOL). That’s about it I think.

[FlamesAddiction]

I guess the point I was trying to make is that ideally, Sutter likes fast players. When he became coach, I don't think it was a coincidence that Donovan was the next player acquisition Button made.

He then went on the acquire several player that I would call fast.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

04 Donovan, Lombardi could skate. Nilson was OK, McCammond could skate (just not in the post season LOL). That’s about it I think.

Rhino was fast. Saprykin could turn it on, but couldn't do anything with in. Neiminen was also pretty fast from my memory. Loyns was fast, but didn't play a lot to matter.

[GioforPM]

Yeah, Reinprecht could skate. The others were just OK - not slow but not overwhelming. Donovan was really the only guy who busted out with speed that I can recall.

Remember this was a team that wasn’t that good in the regular season - they scraped into the POs. But they got really hot after beating a crippled Vancouver in 7. They had no business beating Detroit but Kipper put them on his back.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Half these guys didn't even play together you are taking all the decent skaters from a decade of Flames teams. 04 Flames were not very fast it was a much different game though

Rewatch a game my friend, this team was fast and hard on pucks. They hit everything that moved. The league was also slower back in the day, so maybe some of these players don’t seem fast, but at the time they were.

Chris Clark, Marty Gelinas, Oleg Saprykin, Donovan, Nieminen, Kobasew, Lombardi and even Iggy and Connie at the time could move as they were in their primes. A lot of them played heavy and went to the front of the net. M

It was ugly hockey, but a lot of the skilled teams we faced weren’t up to the challenge except Tampa. Of course the old rules allowed for a lot of obstruction too and hitting at times was borderline charging, so today’s players really can’t play this kind of style 82 games without breaking down physically aka Ferland.

[Rutuu]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Man the narrative of people saying they "aren't allowed to say certain things" is tiresome.

You are allowed to hold your opinions. Just because someone challenges them doesn't mean you aren't allowed to have them.

Just a phrase for dramatic effect...the irony of doing it to criticize Francis I thought was fun.

Of course this an open and free place to share opinions. The mods do a great job.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Rewatch a game my friend, this team was fast and hard on pucks. They hit everything that moved. The league was also slower back in the day, so maybe some of these players don’t seem fast, but at the time they were.

Chris Clark, Marty Gelinas, Oleg Saprykin, Donovan, Nieminen, Kobasew, Lombardi and even Iggy and Connie at the time could move as they were in their primes. A lot of them played heavy and went to the front of the net. M

It was ugly hockey, but a lot of the skilled teams we faced weren’t up to the challenge except Tampa. Of course the old rules allowed for a lot of obstruction too and hitting at times was borderline charging, so today’s players really can’t play this kind of style 82 games without breaking down physically aka Ferland.

I suggest you watch a game...Detroit was all over the Flames and Kipper stood on his head. As the years go by people seem to think the 04 Flames were some dominant team. Realistically if Bert doesn't lose his #### the Flames are out in round one.

[dino7c]

Nm

[Lanny_McDonald]

@Calgary4LIfe

Sutter is just a bad option. I don't care what he said about the Flames and their transition game. I've been saying the same thing since Ward replaced Peters and Peters made the systemic change just prior to the playoffs two years ago. It's something really obvious that anyone with a semi-functioning brain should be able to pick up on. The problem with Sutter is the game he employs and the style he forces on the team. Sutter does not work with the talent he has, he mandates a heavy smash mouth game that really grinds the opposition down. The Calgary Flames do not have the personnel to play that type of game, not unless you want to see Lucic, Robinson, Leivo, and Ritchie as mainstays in the lineup. Sutter's teams relied heavily on dump & chase and physicality to retrieve pucks. That would be about as successful as the game the Flames are being forced to use right now by the pinhead in chief. This team is not built for dump and chase, which is why allowing teams time to setup defensively which forces them to use dump and chase is such a ridiculously bad idea, but that is Ward's system in a nutshell. Sutter would have them improve the transition game, but he would still have them play dump and chase as that is in his DNA and has been central to every team he's coached.

I appreciate you loved Sutter, but the guy is a dinosaur. The Hockey Hall of Fame has no interest in Darryl Sutter's effects for a display, but the Royal Tyrell keeps bugging him. His preferred style of play would be an anachronism in today's game. His reliance on aging veterans would drive the fans insane and would require a makeover of the team that just isn't possible thanks to COVID and the inability to make a trade. The roster he has to work with would not be able to play the game he would expect as they are just too small.

I would also like to dispel a myth forming around Darryl Sutter (what is it with myth building around this place?). Sutter was not some great coach here. Sutter coached for two and a half seasons. He took over from Gilbert and the team barely played .500 hockey the remainder of that season. He deconstructed the team and rebuilt it to suit his own image over the next season and that team snuck into the playoffs as the final seed and went on the improbable run. The following post-lockout season they won the division, and then that was the end of Sutter as the coach, handing the reigns to Jim Playfair and then Mike Keenan (bad coaching hires). Sutter then managed to #### the team up so bad with his tweaking and mismanagement that they never amounted to much and he resigned in December 2010, leaving the team in shambles after gutting the team of prospects and picks. We glorify this guy for two years of work behind the bench, mostly on the back of an improbable run to the finals? What is most ironic about Sutter teams is that is their MO. Scratch and claw their way into the post season then rely on the heavy game to win the war of attrition. The Flames are not constructed to play that game. Sutter would be a terrible choice for the team. Don't get me wrong, it would be a very Calgary Flames decision to bring in Sutter (square peg/round hole) and expect results, but it would not end well.

[Tkachukwagon]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1362629520138792961

What's the deal Geoff Ward?

[Toonage]

He's buying into the "pairs" method. Take 2 top players and you can rotate whoever on the line.

I suppose it works if you have pairs that are both actually producing. Or have a 3rd that still compliments them in some way.

[Jason14h]

Even if you do a pairing system, you can't just stick anyone with them. You need a player who compliments them

This is where this team continues to fail. Creating an executable strategy.

If the coach and GM were on the same page before the offseason started on this strategy, they should have looked at what complementary player would fit well with the pairs and complement their skillsets.

Unless they did and these are the guys we came up with.

I'm not sure which would be worse

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by Tkachukwagon

https://twitter.com/user/status/1362629520138792961

What's the deal Geoff Ward?

Ward making this decision, fans being flabbergasted, and then Simon's lack of any actual skill resulting in him fumbling the puck causing the turnover giving the nucks the early goal.

Hilarious stuff.

What's the deal Geoff ward?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Toonage

He's buying into the "pairs" method. Take 2 top players and you can rotate whoever on the line.

I suppose it works if you have pairs that are both actually producing. Or have a 3rd that still compliments them in some way.

The pairs method does not mean that you can just throw some scrub out there with them - you still need a player that contributes to the line in some way. Two guys against 3 are not going to be effective.

People criticized him for putting Bennett there. But Bennett is better than either of these guys. And Bennett scored on the line, producing more in 3 games than these two have in a calendar year, combined.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by dino7c

I suggest you watch a game...Detroit was all over the Flames and Kipper stood on his head. As the years go by people seem to think the 04 Flames were some dominant team. Realistically if Bert doesn't lose his #### the Flames are out in round one.

I didn’t mean that the Flames dominated the clearly more talented teams, like we were talking about a rebuilding, smaller market, 6th seed vs the elite of the elite teams. But the Flames still needed to win 4 games in each series, so clearly their brash style was good enough to will themselves to victory despite all their injuries and despite the clear disadvantage in talent. It was just put on the work boots each night, skate hard, hit hard, play in straight lines and get to the front of the net. It was a battle of attrition as Darryl put it and they wore their opponents down with this kind of style.

But like I said before, I’m no Darryl Sutter advocate, I’m not sure even he could fix all of this team’s problems long term. This is a flawed roster that needs major renovations before they can take the next jump.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

Ward making this decision, fans being flabbergasted, and then Simon's lack of any actual skill resulting in him fumbling the puck causing the turnover giving the nucks the early goal.

Hilarious stuff.

What's the deal Geoff ward?

It was actually Nils Hoglander’s back check that caused the turnover. It wasn’t like he flubbed a pass or anything, it was the pressure that the Canucks applied in the neutral zone all series that won them the 4 game set.

There’s a book on the Flames, a clear weakness and the Avs exploited it which lead them to victory over the Flames in the playoffs. The Jets applied much of the same this season and the Canucks followed suit. You win the neutral zone battle against the Flames and you generally win the game, simple as that.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

It was actually Nils Hoglander’s back check that caused the turnover. It wasn’t like he flubbed a pass or anything, it was the pressure that the Canucks applied in the neutral zone all series that won them the 4 game set.

There’s a book on the Flames, a clear weakness and the Avs exploited it which lead them to victory over the Flames in the playoffs. The Jets applied much of the same this season and the Canucks followed suit. You win the neutral zone battle against the Flames and you generally win the game, simple as that.

Exactly bubbsy, it wasn’t Simon’s low skill that caused the turnover, it was his lack of situational awareness and failure to protect the puck, the ease with which he was checked! Please.

[Redrum]

He's still s***. Literally any other forward on the roster is likely a better option.