The Deal With Geoff Ward

[midniteowl]

Originally Posted by 868904

Heard this argument before. Darryl went out and acquired guys like Tanguay, Huselius, Cammalleri. Gaudreau will be fine with Darryl and Darryl will be fine with Gaudreau.

Yes Darryl has a shelf life, like all coaches, but this team only has a short window now anyways. It's a perfect match.

Before you blow this team up, try a good veteran coach.

Exactly, I don't care if Darryl only have a shelf live of 4 years, if he can bring 2 cups in that period, I'm good. Hell, if he can bring one I'd be ecstatic!!!

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

There is so much wrong with this statement:


1) 2018 - less than 3 years ago? Has hockey changed that much in 3 years? Elaborate on these huge changes. It is 2018, not 1918.

Yes, the game has continued to change and evolve. It is a younger players game that relies more on speed and transition. You can't get by on playing the lumbering smash mouth game synonymous with Sutter hockey. You need speed and you need to move the puck quickly. Dump and chase with a reliance on crash and bang is no recipe for success in the NHL these days.

2) As others have pointed out, this is exactly the same sentiment that fans and analysts around the NHL said about Darryl being hired in LA... and then he wins 2 cups. Completely turned that under-performing team around nearly overnight, and saved the GM's job.

So, who on this team is Kopitar, Carter, Brown, Clifford, Lewis, Penner, King, Fraser, Nolan, Regehr, Muzzin, or Greene? Smallest guy on the team was Richards who is average size on this team.

Pretty easy to turn a team around when you have that talent level on it too.

3) Based on what I have seen, Darryl is exactly the right coach for this team. What makes you think otherwise? What is this team's biggest issues? I would say it is giving a full effort for 60 minutes - something that Darryl's teams are famous for, at the very least in his first few years on the team. What is another thing that Darryl's teams are famous for? Defensive play - another huge issue on this team even though this team has had iteration after iteration of having one of the NHL's most talented back-ends.

What makes me think otherwise? Take a look at this roster. Take a look at the rosters that Sutter has put together. Sutter likes size and physicality. This team is small and can't play dump and chase to save their lives. They would fail under Sutter because he would try and get them to play that game, and then when they didn't he'd sit the small guys for Robinson, Ritichie, and Leivo. Good lord, Sutter is the antithesis of a coach for this team.

I also still remember Sutter breaking down what was wrong with the Flames years ago when he did a short analyst gig on TSN (or Sportsnet - I don't remember actually). It was under Gulutzan's era. He specifically stated that Calgary has changed their transition to be slower, and that in today's game, every team has a fast transition, and if you don't, you are in trouble. So before you say that Darryl would turn this team into a plodding grind-it-out team, he won't. He wants fast break-outs.

That relied on dump and chase hockey and grinding out the opposition.

Now, in the Covid world, maybe he doesn't want to coach any longer. Maybe he is now officially (quietly?) retired? I don't know. I just can't think of any BETTER options out there. None that are available. He would get this team playing hard, figure out why they are a defensive mess that requires Markstrom to make athletic save after safe (I will hate to see this team if he wears out), and seemingly unable to defend properly. On top of this, they transition like molasses more often than not.

There are other coaches available. I'd take Gallant over Sutter every day of the week and twice on game days. Gallant has shown he can adapt to the talent he has while Sutter makes the team in his own image. The game has passed Sutter by.

The Flames transition poorly because they are schooled to continually move the puck against the flow. Fix this minor issue and this team improves 1000%. Anyone with half a brain can see this.

Maybe Sutter isn't the right coach. Maybe the team is bad. I would love to try Sutter for the rest of the season before making huge moves in the off-season.

Might as well bring Conroy out of retirement and see if Iggy wants to put the band back together too. The game has passed Sutter by. To play his brand of hockey would require a massive retool and we don't have the assets to go through that mess. Not sure if you haven't noticed, but the Flames have drafted small skilled players, not the ice boxes on skates Sutter likes. Bringing Sutter in would be a disaster and move the entire organization backward.

[JTech780]

I like Sutter, but he isn't the right coach for this group. If this team was capable of playing Darryl Sutter hockey, they probably would be playing fine under Ward. Their systems are pretty similar.

My vote would Boudreau, i am not a huge fan, but I think he is the right coach for this team.

[DeluxeMoustache]

I think Vigneault would have been the right coach for this team when he was available.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

There is so much wrong with this statement:


1) 2018 - less than 3 years ago? Has hockey changed that much in 3 years? Elaborate on these huge changes. It is 2018, not 1918.


2) As others have pointed out, this is exactly the same sentiment that fans and analysts around the NHL said about Darryl being hired in LA... and then he wins 2 cups. Completely turned that under-performing team around nearly overnight, and saved the GM's job.


3) Based on what I have seen, Darryl is exactly the right coach for this team. What makes you think otherwise? What is this team's biggest issues? I would say it is giving a full effort for 60 minutes - something that Darryl's teams are famous for, at the very least in his first few years on the team. What is another thing that Darryl's teams are famous for? Defensive play - another huge issue on this team even though this team has had iteration after iteration of having one of the NHL's most talented back-ends.



I also still remember Sutter breaking down what was wrong with the Flames years ago when he did a short analyst gig on TSN (or Sportsnet - I don't remember actually). It was under Gulutzan's era. He specifically stated that Calgary has changed their transition to be slower, and that in today's game, every team has a fast transition, and if you don't, you are in trouble. So before you say that Darryl would turn this team into a plodding grind-it-out team, he won't. He wants fast break-outs.


Now, in the Covid world, maybe he doesn't want to coach any longer. Maybe he is now officially (quietly?) retired? I don't know. I just can't think of any BETTER options out there. None that are available. He would get this team playing hard, figure out why they are a defensive mess that requires Markstrom to make athletic save after safe (I will hate to see this team if he wears out), and seemingly unable to defend properly. On top of this, they transition like molasses more often than not.


Maybe Sutter isn't the right coach. Maybe the team is bad. I would love to try Sutter for the rest of the season before making huge moves in the off-season.

This. So much this.

There are lots of problems right now, (when things aren't going well, everything seems like a problem), but for me, this is right at the heart of it.

The slow playing style causes, or at least exacerbates, everything else. Players look disinterested. They look like they aren't trying. The team looks slow. Other teams can hem them in so easily. Etc, etc.

[Psytic]

Originally Posted by DazzlinDino

I doubt we see a rebuild but may see a retool. Still if the guys in management are running the same bus we may see the same results. A lot of people have put some blame on the core (and rightly so), but what if we trade out the core and still have the same issues... We have traded out a lot of players but still plagued by inconsistency,

Your right it wont change, summarizing all the points I agree with ive read on here.

- Need an Experienced Coach but cant get an experienced Coach because the Coyotes brain trust running our team don't want to be challenged by someone that can smell the bull#### like what happened with Tippet

- The players probably think the same thing many fans do. Ward = nice guy but hes in over his head / not experienced. You can like someone as a human being but still not be inspired to work hard for them. He could be the worlds greatest systems guy (which he isnt) and this team wont get up for him. Like glue gun they dont respect him. Not out of hate just out of the fact he doesn't seem to know what he is doing, the system doesn't work for the skill set of the team and on and on. Half the fans dont so probably half the players dont either nice guy though.

- Need more leadership on the team but it has to come from the best players as you can just tell this group will tune out a barking 4th or even 2nd liner. Has to be Gio and Money and Johnny but they dont have it in them its been proven over 7 yrs.

- So either they need a Leader for a Coach that inspires respect through their resume like a Sutter, Torts, Hartley, etc. or they need a star player swap for someone that is seen positively enough for the team to rally around. You bring in a Hall or somebody like that I think its the same thing it needs to be someone that's been a winner or they get tuned out as soon as they walk in the door.

- Someone needs to come in and be a big enough deal (Coach or Player) to become the new big dog on this team imo and supplant the current leadership. Or their needs to be a change of scenery deal to move all those guys out not cause they are bad players but to affect the culture change. I dont know which is more plausible. New players come in they fall in line with the current regime so to speak... either way id move out Ward first and go from there though he needs to go either way imo.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by taxbuster

Ha ha was just listening to Francis with Rintoul and he said "Geoff Ward's not going anywhere" primarily because of money - Flames will lose money this year and aren't going to spend more to bring in a coach.

If true, that's an indictment of expat Murray Edwards, pure and simple. Lousy owner = lousy team.

Ahh yes, Eric Francis who said Monahan was a quitter in the playoffs when he was hurt. Eric Francis who claims JG can't wait to get out of town and then got exposed by Johnny's sister. Eric Francis who knows sweet F all about anything going on with the Calgary Flames.

[1qqaaz]

If Markstrom is this good now, imagine what he could do with Sutter as coach.
Scary.

[FlamesAddiction]

The Flames under Sutter were far from a slow team.

Donovan, Reinprecht, Neiminen, Glencross, McAmmond, Nilson, Conroy, Lombardi, Gelinas, Saprykin, Iginla, Lundmark, Kobasew, Leopold, Ritchie, Loyns, Amonte, Tanguay, Freisen, Boyd, Nystrom, Bourque.

They range from pretty fast, to very fast. I am sure there are more. He seemed to like fast players and acquired quite a few.

I would say the Flames under Sutter's reign were a much faster team than what we have now.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Psytic

Your right it wont change, summarizing all the points I agree with ive read on here. All the below needs to happen

- Need an Experienced Coach but cant get an experienced Coach because the Coyotes brain trust running our team don't want to be challenged by someone that can smell the bull#### like what happened with Tippet

- The players probably think the same thing many fans do. Ward = nice guy but hes in over his head / not experienced. You can like someone as a human being but still not be inspired to work hard for them. He could be the worlds greatest systems guy (which he isnt) and this team wont get up for him. Like glue gun they dont respect him. Not out of hate just out of the fact he doesn't seem to know what he is doing, the system doesn't work for the skill set of the team and on and on. Half the fans dont so probably half the players dont either nice guy though.

- Need more leadership on the team but it has to come from the best players as you can just tell this group will tune out a barking 4th or even 2nd liner. Has to be Gio and Money and Johnny but they dont have it in them its been proven over 7 yrs.

- So either they need a Leader for a Coach that inspires respect through their resume like a Sutter, Torts, Hartley, etc. or they need a star player swap for someone that is seen positively enough for the team to rally around. You bring in a Hall or somebody like that I think its the same thing it needs to be someone that's been a winner or they get tuned out as soon as they walk in the door.

- Someone needs to come in and be a big enough deal to become the new big dog on this team imo and supplant the current leadership. Or their needs to be a change of scenery deal to move all those guys out not cause they are bad players but to affect the culture change. I dont know which is more plausible. New players come in they fall in line with the current regime so to speak... either way id move out Ward first and go from there though he needs to go either way imo.

Interesting quote, were the Coyotes dealing with the same type of issues? Maybe Tippet saw a bigger issue with the management?

Totally I agree with all of the above, "especially" we need the right kind of "motivator, leader" that can be the top dog. Without this changing the culture might be difficult.

Not sure if that type of coach is on Treliving's radar, and not sure if Treliving knows what kind of team he wants to build. Fast, big, skilled, or a little bit of everything? To be fair acquiring the desired players is not an easy job.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by DazzlinDino

Interesting quote, were the Coyotes dealing with the same type of issues? Maybe Tippet saw a bigger issue with the management?

Totally I agree with all of the above, "especially" we need the right kind of "motivator, leader" that can be the top dog. Without this changing the culture might be difficult.

Not sure if that type of coach is on Treliving's radar, and not sure if Treliving knows what kind of team he wants to build. Fast, big, skilled, or a little bit of everything? To be fair acquiring the desired players is not an easy job.

I think early Tre, rookie GM Tre, wouldn’t have looked at a Darryl due to the threat of a guy who has ownership’s ear and also has been a successful GM.

Now he is a seasoned GM and needs to look in the mirror and ask himself if he has the right coach. The roster is not that different than the one that finished second. Now he’s got a rock solid goalie to rely on, that the players can trust

Big huge elephant in the room is that coaching choice

[tvp2003]

It was almost exactly one year ago that the team was playing like dog shirt, and Ward finally switched back to:

Gaudreau-Monahan-Lindholm
Tkachuk-Backlund-Mangiapane

The difference was immediate and significant, and the leadup to the change was documented in an article written by Eric Duhatchek, which I subsequently posted on CP here: https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthread.php?t=178106

A year later and we're arguably in the exact same position. I'm not sure if it's funny or sad. Probably both. Has Ward learned anything in the past year? Have the players? I'm really not sure but I guess we will see...

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

The Flames under Sutter were far from a slow team.

Donovan, Reinprecht, Neiminen, Glencross, McAmmond, Nilson, Conroy, Lombardi, Gelinas, Saprykin, Iginla, Lundmark, Kobasew, Leopold, Ritchie, Loyns, Amonte, Tanguay, Freisen, Boyd, Nystrom, Bourque.

They range from pretty fast, to very fast. I am sure there are more. He seemed to like fast players and acquired quite a few.

I would say the Flames under Sutter's reign were a much faster team than what we have now.

100%. I happened to re-watch a period or 2 of one of 2004 playoff games recently and I was surprised to see how fast that team could skate and how invested they were. A bunch of pluggers who sacrificed mind, body and soul. They left it all on the ice every night, played hard, played heavy, played with urgency and played with speed.

But with all that said, Darryl Sutter would probably be playing the exact same checking style that Ward haw implemented. The difference with Sutter’s Kings or Sutter’s Flames is that the group he coached played an effective checking style, whereas the majority of players on this team is incapable of doing it for a long period of time or in the playoffs. It’s just not in them or in their nature.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

100%. I happened to re-watch a period or 2 of one of 2004 playoff games recently and I was surprised to see how fast that team could skate and how invested they were. A bunch of pluggers who sacrificed mind, body and soul. They left it all on the ice every night, played hard, played heavy, played with urgency and played with speed.

But with all that said, Darryl Sutter would probably be playing the exact same checking style that Ward haw implemented. The difference with Sutter’s Kings or Sutter’s Flames is that the group he coached played an effective checking style, whereas the majority of players on this team is incapable of doing it for a long period of time or in the playoffs. It’s just not in them or in their nature.

In 2004 they were a team of underdogs that had something to prove, and Sutter brought in a few really good late additions in to the mix

I remember wave after wave of fore checkers, that was a fast and hard working team that got all over the opposing D.

[DazzlinDino]

Maybe we should embed and play the 2004 series in between Flames games so we can have some entertainment and excitement. We know how it ended so the game posts would be a lot more positive!

[Rutuu]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Ahh yes, Eric Francis who said Monahan was a quitter in the playoffs when he was hurt. Eric Francis who claims JG can't wait to get out of town and then got exposed by Johnny's sister. Eric Francis who knows sweet F all about anything going on with the Calgary Flames.

Eric Francis who we're not allowed to criticize to the point he's fired, because he's got kids...Eric Francis who got to his position out of pure nepotism and has held back countless young media careers from blossoming, because the SUN/Sportsnet go with the known commodity...Eric Francis who if he was cancelled would give birth to a new "make up stuff downer" reporter, and so we should never have him swapped out, because the devil we know is better than the one we don't...Eric Francis who's real calling was covering golf, but chose to mail it in for two decades in a dream job for many...Eric Francis with the double button hole lapel signature on his suits...Eric Francis the kid always doing his home work in homeroom copying off someone else...

Sorry just continuing on from your start Dis...happy belated birthday as well fellow EF realist. #noclicks4Francis

[The Boy Wonder]

Originally Posted by Rutuu

Eric Francis who we're not allowed to criticize to the point he's fired, because he's got kids...Eric Francis who got to his position out of pure nepotism and has held back countless young media careers from blossoming, because the SUN/Sportsnet go with the known commodity...Eric Francis who if he was cancelled would give birth to a new "make up stuff downer" reporter, and so we should never have him swapped out, because the devil we know is better than the one we don't...Eric Francis who's real calling was covering golf, but chose to mail it in for two decades in a dream job for many...Eric Francis with the double button hole lapel signature on his suits...Eric Francis the kid always doing his home work in homeroom copying off someone else...

Sorry just continuing on from your start Dis...happy belated birthday as well fellow EF realist. #noclicks4Francis

I’m pretty sure we all openly criticize Eric Francis...

[Jiri Hrdina]

Man the narrative of people saying they "aren't allowed to say certain things" is tiresome.

You are allowed to hold your opinions. Just because someone challenges them doesn't mean you aren't allowed to have them.

[Poe969]

Ward is George Costanza. He's in over his head, doesn't really know what to do to get any kind of results so he just acts upset so people think he's putting in some work and trying. He only really got the job because he was there not because he was the best option.

I respect him, not for anything hockey related but because he's getting paid to do a job he's really not good at and whe things go wrong he just blames everyone else.

The worst part about this is that Treliving is Mr. Kruger.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

The Flames under Sutter were far from a slow team.

Donovan, Reinprecht, Neiminen, Glencross, McAmmond, Nilson, Conroy, Lombardi, Gelinas, Saprykin, Iginla, Lundmark, Kobasew, Leopold, Ritchie, Loyns, Amonte, Tanguay, Freisen, Boyd, Nystrom, Bourque.

They range from pretty fast, to very fast. I am sure there are more. He seemed to like fast players and acquired quite a few.

I would say the Flames under Sutter's reign were a much faster team than what we have now.

Those Flames teams also had size. This one doesn't.

As long as Ward continues to run this country club "sit back and wait" slow transition style, this team will in all likelihood stay at its current .500 pace for the rest of the season.