[GDT] Canucks @ Flames, 8:00 PM MT (Sportsnet 1/Sportsnet Pacific / Fan 960)

[Lanny'sDaMan]

Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood

Yet he isn't dragging down two of our top players and is more reliable defensively.

There is value to that.

I would agree except that Johnny clearly doesn't trust Simon. How many times in the last couple games did he spin around and take a lap in the offensive zone instead of passing it over?

[Stanley]

Originally Posted by Lanny'sDaMan

I would agree except that Johnny clearly doesn't trust Simon. How many times in the last couple games did he spin around and take a lap in the offensive zone instead of passing it over?

I've noticed that too. At least Johnny and Mony have connected with Benny on some plays, hell some even resulted in goals! Can you imagine that?! But no, no, let's go with Simon he doesn't drag anybody down and is more reliable defensively lol

[Stanley]

Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood

Just because Bennett scored a goal in a game it doesnt mean he had a good game. He had a shift where he scored.

What about all the other shifts where he couldn't make a pass, couldn't take a pass, bobbled the puck and lost it, gets stripped, gets hemmed in zone or loses yet another puck battle?

Watch his shifts. Hes not adding anything of note. The Monahan line has been better with Leivo or Simon on it. So what does that say? Why should Bennett stay there when a couple of replacement players have better results?

If Backlund cant play tonight, Im sure Bennett will slot as the 3rd line center again. This coaching staff gave the guy who has a trade demand to get off the team a chance with the top players and he still couldnt mesh with them.

Hes a play killer and the coaching staff knows it. They watch replays of his shifts over and over again. They see how that line continually gets hemmed in and how he contributes to it. Enough coddling of Sam Bennett. He deserves nothing and IMO even less now that he doesn't even want to play for this team anymore.

Sorry Bennett fans, he has been the weak link on every line hes been played on. Honestly do you believe any player on this team wants him on their line? The outrage around here about such a beyond mediocre player is just bizarre.

Better results how exactly? Would love for you to elaborate on that...

[Stanley]

I'm not even suggesting Bennett is the answer on Johnny's line, yes plays do die on Bennett's stick we all know that - but there's at least some jam, some drive to the net...I'm just arguing that Simon is NOT a better option no matter which way you spin it, that's all. Simon should be the poster boy for 'plays dying on his stick'.

As for Benny, I personally prefer Benny at C with Looch.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Stanley

Yay...I'm sure Johnny and Mony shiver with sheer excitement when they see Simon lining up beside them as their defensively responsible linemate lol

Do you think they "shiver with sheer excitement" every chance they get to play with Sam Bennett?

That doesn't sound any more or less absurd to me.

[CsInMyBlood]

Originally Posted by Stanley

Better results how exactly? Would love for you to elaborate on that...

Bingos post in this thread, scroll up.

With Leivo
31 minutes
50% CF
57% xGF

With Bennett
47 minutes
43% CF
44% xGF

With Simon
54 minutes
50% CF
54% XGF

The two without any of the three
46 minutes
59% CF
57% xGF

Bennett with Monahan and Gaudreau have improved in recent games, but he has the poorest results with them season to date.

[868904]

Originally Posted by Stanley

Better results how exactly? Would love for you to elaborate on that...

It honestly doesn't even matter who is on Johnny/Mony's RW anymore.

Lindholm was there most of last year and they struggled. He was there before and they dominated. Lindy isn't there this year and they are producing which is what's important.

Bennett, Simon, Leivo, Nordstrom. It's all the same, the difference is that this team needs to take a longer term view of things rather than a short term. Simon, Leivo and Nordstrom have ZERO value now or in the future.

Bennett, despite his struggles, still has value. It is important that the organization gets utility out of Bennett, whether that be actually establishing an important role on this team or in a trade to bring in another valuable asset.

That's the whole point, don't continue to deteriorate the asset. Prop the asset up and trade it if you don't want it around.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by 868904

It honestly doesn't even matter who is on Johnny/Mony's RW anymore.

Lindholm was there most of last year and they struggled. He was there before and they dominated. Lindy isn't there this year and they are producing which is what's important.

Bennett, Simon, Leivo, Nordstrom. It's all the same, the difference is that this team needs to take a longer term view of things rather than a short term. Simon, Leivo and Nordstrom have ZERO value now or in the future.

Bennett, despite his struggles, still has value. It is important that the organization gets utility out of Bennett, whether that be actually establishing an important role on this team or in a trade to bring in another valuable asset.

That's the whole point, don't continue to deteriorate the asset. Prop the asset up and trade it if you don't want it around.

I think this is a pretty naive view of how coaches coach and GMs manage. The coach is not going to construct lineups on the basis of perceived trade value, and a GM is not going to expect him to. Besides, I tend to think players values are much more static than a lot of people seem to imagine. NHL GMs already know who Bennett is and how he plays. A few more games on Monahan's wing is not going to suddenly cause them to fall all over themselves to acquire him. At this point, he is not getting moved until at least the trade deadline, and I suspect most likely not until the offseason.

[Teroy]

Originally Posted by Lanny'sDaMan

I would agree except that Johnny clearly doesn't trust Simon. How many times in the last couple games did he spin around and take a lap in the offensive zone instead of passing it over?

Give me a break. This has nothing to do with Simon. Gaudreau does this all the time.

[Stanley]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Do you think they "shiver with sheer excitement" every chance they get to play with Sam Bennett?

That doesn't sound any more or less absurd to me.

Ha probably not, a fair point, most times I'm not sure what makes them excited anymore

[Stanley]

Originally Posted by 868904

It honestly doesn't even matter who is on Johnny/Mony's RW anymore.

Lindholm was there most of last year and they struggled. He was there before and they dominated. Lindy isn't there this year and they are producing which is what's important.

Bennett, Simon, Leivo, Nordstrom. It's all the same, the difference is that this team needs to take a longer term view of things rather than a short term. Simon, Leivo and Nordstrom have ZERO value now or in the future.

Bennett, despite his struggles, still has value. It is important that the organization gets utility out of Bennett, whether that be actually establishing an important role on this team or in a trade to bring in another valuable asset.

That's the whole point, don't continue to deteriorate the asset. Prop the asset up and trade it if you don't want it around.

Agreed. This is moreso what I'm on board with rather than actually sitting here arguing about "who's better" on that line

[Stanley]

Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood

Bingos post in this thread, scroll up.

With Leivo
31 minutes
50% CF
57% xGF

With Bennett
47 minutes
43% CF
44% xGF

With Simon
54 minutes
50% CF
54% XGF

The two without any of the three
46 minutes
59% CF
57% xGF

Bennett with Monahan and Gaudreau have improved in recent games, but he has the poorest results with them season to date.

I get that these are useful statistical benchmarks but quite honestly they mean nothing to me as it relates to this debate. Simon doesn't pass the eye test for me, I don't even remember that last time there was a high danger scoring chance when he was on the ice. Mind you I haven't caught every shift of every game so forgive me if I've missed some of Simon's impact.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Do you think they "shiver with sheer excitement" every chance they get to play with Sam Bennett?

That doesn't sound any more or less absurd to me.

I would say there’s a pretty good chance that Monahan and Gaudreau would rather play with Bennett over any of the replacement forwards.

If for no other reason than they all came up together. Simon and Leivo are nobody to them.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Stanley

I get that these are useful statistical benchmarks but quite honestly they mean nothing to me as it relates to this debate. Simon doesn't pass the eye test for me, I don't even remember that last time there was a high danger scoring chance when he was on the ice. Mind you I haven't caught every shift of every game so forgive me if I've missed some of Simon's impact.

I think the issue is where people start watching the play for impact. I have no clue of it’s true but maybe Simon does a better job at helping them get out of the D zone. If they don’t get out of there more often than not, it doesn’t matter who’s better in the offensive zone (and I agree that must be Bennett).

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

I would say there’s a pretty good chance that Monahan and Gaudreau would rather play with Bennett over any of the replacement forwards.

If for no other reason than they all came up together. Simon and Leivo are nobody to them.

For sure. But I tend to think these sorts of changes don't really affect the set players very much at all. Gaudreau and Monahan are not going to especially bothered by it.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Lanny'sDaMan

I would agree except that Johnny clearly doesn't trust Simon. How many times in the last couple games did he spin around and take a lap in the offensive zone instead of passing it over?

Originally Posted by Stanley

I've noticed that too. At least Johnny and Mony have connected with Benny on some plays, hell some even resulted in goals! Can you imagine that?! But no, no, let's go with Simon he doesn't drag anybody down and is more reliable defensively lol

Bennett should have stayed centering Lucic and Dube - that's where he was most effective and he looked way more impactful there than on Monahan's wing.

And honestly that is on Johnny and Mony if they feel that way and don't want to pass to Simon.

He's not the ideal solution and I'd love for them to have a better RWer to play in that spot but they need to be able to play with the player that is with them.

Sure Simon is not amazing but he's also a guy that played about 40% of his time on a line in Pittsburgh with Crosby, and they put up pretty good results together.

So he's played with skilled linemates before and they actually had good results together. Crosby had a higher xGF% with Simon than he did without Simon, and Simon's results were actually pretty good even when Crosby wasn't on the ice.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I knew someone would ask, so of course you posted in response, but these sample sizes are WAY too small to be at all useful. We're talking about 2 to 4 games with each combo. Not only too small, but who they were up against, and whether it was at home or on the road, really matters here - not enough time for the numbers to average those things out.

Coaches 15 games into a season are dealing with small sample sizes no matter what you look at.

Underlying numbers.
Actual scoring stats.

Or even simple eye test.

No matter the method it's 40-50 minutes for each of the three trios.

If he sees Monahan and Gaudreau spending less time in their own zone than with Bennett or Leivo it's not insane to go with that. Personally I think Leivo should be the one getting a look instead of Simon.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by savardandjokinen

What they should do is

Tkachuk-Lindholm-X
Gaudreau-Monahan-X
Mangiapane-Backlund-X
Lucic-Bennett-Dube

Knowing the flames X would probably be Leivo, Simon and Nordstrom, but whatever, I’d prefer 4 deep lines and ones we know have clicked in the past

Exactly, this isn't that hard.

You have 3 pairs of players that work well together, and one trio of players that looks amazing together whenever played together.

Keep those groups together!

Then you just fill in the three empty spots with filler from the Leivo, Simon, Nordstrom, Ryan (when healthy), Gawdin, Phillips, Robinson, etc group, and hope that the GM can make a move to bring in one legitimate RW at the trade deadline to fill one of the spots.

Issue we have is our coach seems to think that Nordstrom and Froese are so amazing that they can't come out of the lineup and need to stay in the lineup (Narrator Voice: They aren't that amazing)

[dino7c]

Simon also hasn't asked to be traded...honestly Bennett can pound sand

If other teams actually wanted him he would be gone already, Flames are in a tough spot

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Simon also hasn't asked to be traded...honestly Bennett can pound sand

If other teams actually wanted him he would be gone already, Flames are in a tough spot

Typically waiver wire fodder don't have much of a case when it comes to asking for a trade. Weirdest player I can remember because he's there and you can see his ice time so he played but there's just nothing going on good or bad and you could be excused for not even knowing that he played after watching the game from beginning to end. Maybe the most uneventful player ever. It's line Johnny and Monahan have a winger but not really.