[PGT] Flames lay an egg

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by browna

The continual "this core has been through 4 coaches and nothing" argument isn't factual. Bill Peters developed a system, preached it, demanded buy in.

When there was buy in and it was proven the system worked, which gave the team confidence that the coach new what he was doing. And, when the in game tactics requires changing, or a push, he could deliver handle that, and again, the team is successful and the players can be confident that the plan works and continue to go along with that plan.

All that meant is that the coach proved that he knew what he was doing and he knew what each player should be doing, and his tactics and game plan worked. He made your hockey life miserable if you didn't execute, but if it meant winning games, the players continued to buy in and players like winning as opposed to losing.

If you didn't buy in, there were consequences immediately. But players knew thier role and their role was just to execute and didn't have any ambiguity or uncertainess of what they had to do each of their shifts on the ice or role on the team.

Peters and the Flames rolled with that, consistently, over 82 games, to finish 2nd in the league with this same core but a less overall talented team.

While this is true they then completely fell on their face in the playoffs, and then started their return to mediocrity the next season for half a season under Peters.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Well Darryl Sutter was coach of a heartless team for two years and he instilled effort and caring in that group, led them to a Cup finals and a first place finish the next year. Almost immediately after he stopped being the head coach the team lost its ability to care or put forth a consistent effort. I would just love to see them try a proven winner with the disposition of a Darryl Sutter. That could include Torts or other similar coaches, but the teacher of X's and O's will never get this group over the hump. That has been painfully apparent for years now. Somehow Treliving either does not see that or actually thinks coaches like Ward and Gulutzan can get it done for this group. This group needs a coach that is the heart and soul of the team.

There is an interview somewhere where Gulutzan mentions he asked Darryl Sutter how he got the players to play for him. I don't know if I can find it now, but those X and O guys are not task masters, they don't know how to get the teams consistently playing at a high level. Need a proper coach to get better results from this group.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

Except the Flames were dominated. To say the Canucks barely eked out a win is disingenuous, when they could easily have won 6-0. Flames were lucky to win las game too.

So the Canucks tried hard last night. Can’t the Flames put in an effort too?


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Would have been a shame to lose a game 6-0 when the high danger scoring chances were 13-10

3-1 loss was fair

[browna]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

It feels rather gross to be pining over Bill Peters. Yes that a fabulous regular season under him, but I also remember:

They tailed off considerably after the all star game.
They were absolutely steamrollered in the playoffs by a team that lost in the next round. I'd say the Flames performed better in the playoffs vs Dallas under Ward.
They were 12-12-4 under him the next season. We'll never know if they would have turned things around but I saw plenty of signs that team was utterly disinterested in playing for him.

My conclusions from this are that the Flames are simply not as good as their 2018-19 regular season record would indicate. Even bad teams have good stretches and that was a decent team having an extended great stretch. Peters deserves credit as clearly the new voice and change in approach had a positive effect. But IMO it was not sustainable.

When it comes to coaches, maybe it's time we stop putting them in one of two buckets. The hard coach or the players coach. Maybe in fact there's a lot more nuance to a coach's approach than that.

Not pining over Peters.

The point is that this team and this core, with the right system to make full use of their talents, implemented through someone who makes sure that his system is successful because it is 100% bought into via discipline/fear/keep players on edge/whatever, can get and has gotten results with the core of this team, 2 short years ago.

[topfiverecords]

Did we lose 9-1 to the 31st place team at the end of a 10 game losing streak? That’s how this thread reads.

[Scooter]

Probably would have if Rittich had been in net. Markstrom is the only reason they won 3 in a row.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

The players have to take a lot of the blame too. I don’t think there is person who is critiquing the coaches that hasn’t said that, but it’s pretty clear this coaching staff isn’t very good either and isn’t the solution.

The record is irrelevant to me as they had a bit of a bump right after Peters was fired, but really they’ve been .500 under Ward outside of that, and the bigger issue to me is the style of play he has them playing and his player utilization.

It became obvious in the series against Dallas, and it’s continued into this season, IMO he’s trying to fit a square peg into a round hole and is playing a system that doesn’t suit this roster. It’s a boring and safe system that you’d expect a team like Ottawa who is rebuilding to play, take no risks and reap no rewards.

Collapse in front of your net, safe plays up the wall to exit the zone, don’t try to attack with speed turn back and make the safe pass, don’t try to make a play at the other teams blueline - just get it deep, and don’t try to step up at your own blueline just back up and give them the zone entry. Those all seems to be things that this coaching staff preaches because the team has played that safe, grind it out style of hockey since Ward became coach.

Playing this style means you are handcuffing your own skill guys. Play a low risk style of play that a rebuilding team would play, and you will get rebuilding results on the ice. Except even worse because the young guys and grinders will probably execute dump and chase better than a smaller veteran team with skill.

The GM and Coach seem to want this team to play boring, heavy hockey when they have built a roster not suited to doing so at all.

Then on top of that Ward has made questionable personal decisions in terms of how he utilizes his bench, and really I don’t like how he never takes responsibility for any of the poor performances (going back to throwing Talbot under the bus after he was the one who made the stupid decision to pull him).

Treliving was given a mulligan with this coaching staff after the Peters incident and he had a chance to go a different direction, instead he decided to stay course with the exact staff we had the two seasons prior (minus Peters), just a stupid decision.

^ This! Spot on. Best post of the thread.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

Did we lose 9-1 to the 31st place team at the end of a 10 game losing streak? That’s how this thread reads.

The Flames were absolutely dominated by the Canucks. One of the worst games the Flames have played in a generation.

They are better than they showed, but it's troubling how low the floor is for them.

When was the last time the Flames outshot an opponent by 27 shots? And the Canucks had one frickin' powerplay. One. It's just incredible how bad they were last night.

[Manhattanboy]

It's just so apparent when watching other games just how bad the Flames are at clearing their own zone, speed through the neutral zone and offensive zone entry.

And it's been that way for some time.

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

Did we lose 9-1 to the 31st place team at the end of a 10 game losing streak? That’s how this thread reads.

But for Markstrom it could have been 9-1. That effort was an embarrassment.

Here you have a chance to effectively take a rival out of the playoff race and that's the result? No one in this organization ever gets angry. It really is a country club. Nice cars, nice girls, nice paycheck, nice life.

Hopefully we can get more players who GAF.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Scooter

Probably would have if Rittich had been in net. Markstrom is the only reason they won 3 in a row.

I seriously doubt it. The Canucks owned the offensive zone last night, but they barely had any really quality looks. I honestly didn't think their defensive game was that bad; the problem was their transitions and the gawd-awful performance with the puck.

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[Red]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Would have been a shame to lose a game 6-0 when the high danger scoring chances were 13-10

3-1 loss was fair

High Danger chances are not the only representation of what actual high danger scoring chances are. They are a terrible measure/indicator of scoring chances.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Red

High Danger chances are not the only representation of what a high danger scoring chances are. They are a terrible measure/indicator of scoring chances.

Even then, I didn't think the Canucks had many high quality chances at all. They had a lot of volume, and Markstrom had to make a tonne of saves, but almost all of them were fairly routine. I thought the chances surrendered by the Flames were a lot more dangerous on Thursday.

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[FlamesAddiction]

I think Markstrom made it look easier than it was. His rebound control prevented a lot of second chances that most goalies would not have prevented.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I think Markstrom made it look easier than it was. His rebound control prevented a lot of second chances that most goalies would not have prevented.

Yeah, that is probably fair. It still felt to me like the Canucks were struggling all night to get quality chances. I think moreso because of how terrible they are than anything the Flames were doing.

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[djsFlames]

Going into crisis mode after every loss is getting old.

You guys are familiar with the team. You know that major changes will not happen mid season during a covid year where budgets are tight and quarantine is required.

Nasty effort but it can only get better. Can we ever just say "burn the tape and move on to the next one" and leave it at that?

[Lanny'sDaMan]

Roughly 40 years as a Flames fan. And I am so tired of caring more about this team than the players do. So many different players, coaches, GMs and the song never freaking changes. Disinterested play, and unengaged players.

[sticktrick]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

It's just so apparent when watching other games just how bad the Flames are at clearing their own zone, speed through the neutral zone and offensive zone entry.

And it's been that way for some time.

Indeed. There appears to be a lot of emphasis on the flames ensuring possession with the puck out of their own zone...and it is really costing them, turnovers after turnovers. This is absolutely a practiced, detailed coaching strategy for sure that has been implemented, and it is clearly not working. I can recall watching the majority of the flames fail at clearing the puck out or properly and safely chipping out the puck when it is desperate, safe and necessary. It’s like they moved the needle and exercising a set play where it’s a possession first option. So many 3 and 4 foot passes to a teammate that gets gobbled up and turned over... none of them are exercising the safe play when desperate and they have lots of time and space to do it. Half the Canucks shots and chances were from these turnovers. This has to be fixed...it’s a technical coaching issue that is falling flat on its face.

[Psytic]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

Going into crisis mode after every loss is getting old.

You guys are familiar with the team. You know that major changes will not happen mid season during a covid year where budgets are tight and quarantine is required.

Nasty effort but it can only get better. Can we ever just say "burn the tape and move on to the next one" and leave it at that?

Burn the tape about 75% of the games in the season then? No. Its a trend your right but no I wont accept it. The fact Ward seems to accept it is part of why I want him fired. Why Treliving keeps getting this type of coach I dont get it either? Losing is fine you cant win every game and the league is so close. How they lose though in such spectacular fashion is not acceptable IMO.

The leadership core on this team doesn't have it in them to get up for games. They need that type to give them a boot in the ass and that starts with the best players on the team. We know they arent suddenly going to change. Its not easy to wholesale flip your core though. The easiest thing to do is get a decent coach to put their asses to the fire and go from there. They reacted to Hartley, they got up for him, they looked more conditioned and ready to play under him. If you cant get leadership out of your core get it out of your coach and mgmt. If it doesnt work out then we removed that variable at least and we go from there.

Never knowing though how this core reacts to a proven coach/motivator will go down in history like not getting a C for Iggy. At least get 1 decent proven motivator then ill concede. I guess thats basically Boudreau or Gallant with whats out there right now. Demote Ward back to assistant to save face if you have to.

[Manhattanboy]

Not getting a proper C for Iggy is one of the great crimes of the last 100 years.