[PGT] Flames lay an egg

[Macman]

I don't think Sam Bennett on the first line works and they need to switch him to the second line and put Elias Lindholm back on the first line.
Look at how often Bennett, Gaudreau and Monahan run into each other down low in the offensive zone. Where is the set play? It's like give the puck to the most skilled guy and see what he can do.

I also thought David Rittich should have gotten the start, he needs to play too, especially in these 3 game series. If they would have lost they can come back with Markstrom, so who starts next game? Probably Markstrom again.

Flames best line to me the last couple games has been Backlund, Mangiapane and Lucic. They actually play as a cohesive unit.

I don't really expect changes honestly other than maybe a Bennett trade due to the pandemic and all but who knows.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Infinit47

So Gaudreau should unilaterally change the entry in the PP and dump, despite the fact all the other players are standing still and his game could not be less suited to puck retrieval? Yeah, that sure is on him and not the coaching staff.

Well i've watched other players do it, have you not? Why couldnt Gaudreau? (Top 10 PP in the league since Ward took over BTW)

Maybe the team record is in spite of Ward, not because of him.

That must be it. It's just coincidence that it flies in the face of your argument.

How you could defend Leivo on when trying to tie the game last night is beyond me.

Who did that?...or are we now down to the strawman segment of the debate?

[Cali Panthers Fan]

nm

[CroCop]

Originally Posted by TOfan

How many years could the same have been said about the the Caps and the Blues?

Oh do you mean the Caps who were perennial President Trophy contenders/winners and playoff locks whom featured one of the top players in NHL history surrounded by an all star cast? Ok. Like where do we begin to compare this current Flames group to that?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood

All these calling for the head of the coach posts are brutal. We win and the same people aren't praising the coaching but if we lose it's all on the coaching? No I'm not trying to say we have the best coaching in the league but come on.

Nobody is telling Sean Monahan to skate around with his head in the clouds giving the puck away. No coach is telling Sam Bennett not to win a puck battle or skate back with a disgusting disconnected controller once he does lose the puck. No coach is telling Gio to fire the puck up to opposing forwards. No coach is telling Tkachuk to make no look passes to the empty boards or to fire it wide. No coach is telling Valamaki to cough up the puck like it's a hand grenade. No coach is telling Gaudreau to skate it into a wall of 3 guys on the PP.

This is an execution failure, bad choices by players. They need to shoulder most of the blame for that last game.

Yup. The whole point of the bump back (used by at least 75% of the teams in the league) is to give the carrier a good look at where the defenders are lined up, so he can go to the other areas. Johnny gets fixed on entering the left side. Or his line mates are not moving to receive the short pass across the line, which is how the entry is supposed to work.

The narratives are tiring. “Ward never makes adjustments” (I guess except for all those games this year where the Flames came back from poor starts). “Ward insists on rolling 4 lines” (except when he plays the 3rd line except PK Nordstrom for 3-4 minutes). “The system doesn’t work” (with 3 different descriptions of the system).

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Burning Beard

Imo you have to try a new proven coach before you blow it all up. It would seem silly not to. On paper this team is better than the team that was 1st in the West under Peters.

It appears increasingly evident that those 4 months were the exception, not the rule with this team.

Originally Posted by TOfan

How many years could the same have been said about the the Caps and the Blues?

Both of those teams had multiple years where they advanced well past game 6 of rd 1. There was at least some evidence to justify patience...harder to say that here.

[skcli]

Trevling completely built this team in the wrong way. They are not tough like the Blues, they are not fast like the Leafs or even the Canucks. Most players, like the Tkachuk, Monahan, Levio and the likes cannot carry the puck into the offensive zone with speed. All the first line can do is either a stretch pass to Guadreau and hail Mary for a breakaway, or dump and chase which certainly they will lose the puck. Magiapane, Dube, Backlund can carry the puck into the O zone with speed but they always find no one to pass to. All of our high first round picks are underperforming, if too early to say it is a failure. The team is rotten from GM down to the players. If you use a medical term it is a tumor which needs to be surgically removed. The challenge is who can make the call, and how soon.

I have been watching the Flames since the early 1980ès. The last few years are the most frustrating experiences I have as a Flames fan for over 30 years.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Young Guns

I’ve never really thought the coach was a problem. But any coach that decides to put Josh Leivo on the ice with the goalie pulled now has me questioning him.

It's like he's throwing darts at the board with his player deployment. Frustrating.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Nonsense.

Its just as often because you cant change 20 guys and its much easier to change one guy.

Is Laviolette a good coach? Cause he got fired multiple times. His team is not going well right now...is it because he forgot how to coach or is it just maybe something to do with personnel?

Hell Scotty Bowman was fired multiple times...must be because he is a bad coach.

How about Gallant? Hes been fired multiple times. Some want him in Calgary? Why? Because according to your logic he is a bad coach after being fired over and over....right?

Boudreau...fired 3 times now!! 3 times as bad a coach.

All I am saying is that this group has clearly proven a tough bunch to get any consistency out of and to blame Ward for all that is just lazy and unfair. Every guy who has had them has found out the same thing.

Sure they are a tough bunch to coach but they have never been coached by a top level coach, ever and it's not even close. Peters was an average coach when hired and he's the best they have had. Plenty of good teams are difficult to coach. The Penguins were floundering for some time until they made the change to Sullivan to which the switch flipped and they won back to back cups. Flyers were a .500 team forever but under AV they instantly became a .600 club. As you said you can't change the 20 guys and it's clear the current head coach is not a top NHL head coach so if you are happy with mediocrity you enjoy Jeff Ward hockey.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by skcli

Trevling completely built this team in the wrong way. They are not tough like the Blues, they are not fast like the Leafs or even the Canucks. Most players, like the Tkachuk, Monahan, Levio and the likes cannot carry the puck into the offensive zone with speed. All the first line can do is either a stretch pass to Guadreau and hail Mary for a breakaway, or dump and chase which certainly they will lose the puck. Magiapane, Dube, Backlund can carry the puck into the O zone with speed but they always find no one to pass to. All of our high first round picks are underperforming, if too early to say it is a failure. The team is rotten from GM down to the players. If you use a medical term it is a tumor which needs to be surgically removed. The challenge is who can make the call, and how soon.

I have been watching the Flames since the early 1980ès. The last few years are the most frustrating experiences I have as a Flames fan for over 30 years.

I agree the team has always needed speed. But which of the high first round picks do you blame Treliving for? Tkachuk or Bennett? Those are the only ones that are arguably high picks under him, and he really had almost no choice with either. Out of the three guys you mentioned with speed, two were drafted by Treliving.

I suppose he could have made some blockbusters to get speed, but that would have involved moving Monahan or Gaudreau, and can you imagine the howls if he did that? And it wouldn’t have likely gotten value.

This team needed to have a top 3 pick in the last 6 years.

[868904]

Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood

All these calling for the head of the coach posts are brutal. We win and the same people aren't praising the coaching but if we lose it's all on the coaching? No I'm not trying to say we have the best coaching in the league but come on.

Nobody is telling Sean Monahan to skate around with his head in the clouds giving the puck away. No coach is telling Sam Bennett not to win a puck battle or skate back with a disgusting disconnected controller once he does lose the puck. No coach is telling Gio to fire the puck up to opposing forwards. No coach is telling Tkachuk to make no look passes to the empty boards or to fire it wide. No coach is telling Valamaki to cough up the puck like it's a hand grenade. No coach is telling Gaudreau to skate it into a wall of 3 guys on the PP.

This is an execution failure, bad choices by players. They need to shoulder most of the blame for that last game.

This year when the team has won no one is praising the coach because the wins have been because of Markstrom. Are we suppose to praise Ward for writing Markstrsom’s name in the lineup sheet properly? That’s a pretty low standard.

It’s the coaches job to get the players ready to play. Even more so than all the x’s and o’s. A coach has to prepare the team mentally to play. Being a coach is as much psychological as technical.

How is it that this core is never ready to play or is so inconsistent? It’s because they don’t have the person leading them. Under Hartley, the roster wasn’t good and they were losing the analytics battle but they were playing consistently the way that he wanted and they played that way because it neutralized their lack of talent. He was a hard ass psycho but he had them playing consistently the way he wanted. There’s nothing wrong with having a coach that the players don’t like. It’s not a god damn popularity contest, it IS a job, there’s millions of dollars at stake and it is a business. This ridiculous notion that it has to be fun for the players and they have to be empowered is just typical SJW crap.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Sure they are a tough bunch to coach but they have never been coached by a top level coach, ever and it's not even close. Peters was an average coach when hired and he's the best they have had. Plenty of good teams are difficult to coach. The Penguins were floundering for some time until they made the change to Sullivan to which the switch flipped and they won back to back cups. Flyers were a .500 team forever but under AV they instantly became a .600 club. As you said you can't change the 20 guys and it's clear the current head coach is not a top NHL head coach so if you are happy with mediocrity you enjoy Jeff Ward hockey.

Funny though, they got rid of Bylsma, who had won a cup for them. Then they had Mike Johnston, an unknown, for 1.5 seasons. And then they changed to Sullivan who was an unknown - not exactly moving to get a famous “top level coach”.

[Red]

the draft is not the only way that a team can be improved. Many great players have been traded or were signed by other teams. Treliving has been talking about adding a bigger, strong forward for years. He has been in on a few, Stone, PLD, Anderson, Toffoli etc. Others like Kane, Laine, JT Miller, ROR also changed teams during his time.

Not saying all these guys would be great here, but my point is that Treliving has a knack for missing out on top players. He is good getting the lesser skilled guys, supporting cast so to speak. And that's how we ended up with a team with a terrible top line.

[Iggy Snipe]

The Flames issue in the game yesterday, and overall this season, isn’t their abilities. It’s the work ethic and compete level. They lose 50/50 puck battles way to often, and no one on this team is playing with any heart right now. It’s comes down to their competitiveness.

Every game they get blown out of the building in the first period, with goaltending being the only bright light or saving grace. They are not ready to play hockey and match the other teams level.

This is a leadership issue in the room. The group needs to buy in. The group needs to believe in their leadership Core, and maybe they don’t.

Too many times the Flames look “dead” on the ice. No energy, no life. That results in being out shot, out chanced, and out played.

The game yesterday was pathetic to watch as a Flames fan. HNIC and the Flames looked like the worst team in the league. Thank goodness for Markstrom....

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by 868904

This year when the team has won no one is praising the coach because the wins have been because of Markstrom. Are we suppose to praise Ward for writing Markstrsom’s name in the lineup sheet properly? That’s a pretty low standard.

And goaltending is the biggest reason that Ward has had some success as a coach. Easily has received the best goaltending of any of the Flames last 4 head coaches.

Hartley: .901 (29th)
Gulutzan: .906 (23rd)
Peters: .903 (20th)
Ward: .909 (11th and climbing)

So Ward is getting pretty much the same overall outcomes, with much better goaltending, that speaks to me that the team has taken a step back in other areas under him.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Young Guns

I’ve never really thought the coach was a problem. But any coach that decides to put Josh Leivo on the ice with the goalie pulled now has me questioning him.

I'm not big on harping on the bottom half of the roster, but Leivo was brutal last night. Multiple failed clears and puck battles where he just didn't engage at all, like his limp fly-by on the GWG.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Red

the draft is not the only way that a team can be improved. Many great players have been traded or were signed by other teams. Treliving has been talking about adding a bigger, strong forward for years. He has been in on a few, Stone, PLD, Anderson, Toffoli etc. Others like Kane, Laine, JT Miller, ROR also changed teams during his time.

Not saying all these guys would be great here, but my point is that Treliving has a knack for missing out on top players. He is good getting the lesser skilled guys, supporting cast so to speak. And that's how we ended up with a team with a terrible top line.

He got Hamilton, Lindholm, Hanifin, Tanev, and Markstrom. He’s gotten as many big names as any other GM IMO.

[Toonage]

This seems like a rare moment where everyone is right.

Coaching is poor. Roster construction is poor. Effort and drive is poor.

That's a lot to overcome.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Funny though, they got rid of Bylsma, who had won a cup for them. Then they had Mike Johnston, an unknown, for 1.5 seasons. And then they changed to Sullivan who was an unknown - not exactly moving to get a famous “top level coach”.

I wouldn't say he was an unknown. His first season as Bruins head coach he led them to 104 points. The reality is that coaches need to be the right fit for the team not the other way around and I don't consider it an issue firing coaches until you find the right guy. I would rather have 3 coached in 5 years it if meant the 3rd guy took the team to the next level over 5 years of mediocrity under one coach.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Effort and care has to come from within. No coach is getting this core to magically become professionals. They literally refuse to do it.

A new coach is more lipstick on the already thrice lipsticked pig. Blow it up.

This core will not win. And their legacy will be laziness.

Well Darryl Sutter was coach of a heartless team for two years and he instilled effort and caring in that group, led them to a Cup finals and a first place finish the next year. Almost immediately after he stopped being the head coach the team lost its ability to care or put forth a consistent effort. I would just love to see them try a proven winner with the disposition of a Darryl Sutter. That could include Torts or other similar coaches, but the teacher of X's and O's will never get this group over the hump. That has been painfully apparent for years now. Somehow Treliving either does not see that or actually thinks coaches like Ward and Gulutzan can get it done for this group. This group needs a coach that is the heart and soul of the team.