Avoiding frozen water pipes while furnace is broken

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by jroc

Fair enough.

I've spent several years in retail. Are you saying they don't take the return, turn around, and sell it as an 'open box' item anymore?

Yes, that is what I'm saying.

[Redlan]

Why not just crank up the infloor heat in the basement and make sure the other furnace (the upstairs or the main floor whichever is working) takes up the slack until it is fixed. That’s what I did...

[keratosis]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

Who are you responding to?

Forgot the quote, Silver.

Sent from my SM-A715W using Tapatalk

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Come on. The guys kids were freezing. It's not unethical to buy and return something in those circumstances. It's not like he's running a side hustle buying and returning space heaters. If he is, then you have a point.

I think Canadian Tire has some wiggle room in their margins when they are consistently able to sell stuff at 75% off. Or do you voluntarily pay full price for socket wrenches because of tHe SuPpLiErsS

Yeah, I know his family was freezing, so he needed to buy some space heaters. You don't get to steal time with space heaters when you get cold. You pay for them.

You're not getting how it works, though. It's not Canadian Tire who will eat this loss. It's their supplier. And yeah, it's not spelled SuPpLiEr. Suppliers are actual business run and owned by actual people. If you need a heater borrow one from a friend (free) or buy one.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Yeah, I know his family was freezing, so he needed to buy some space heaters. You don't get to steal time with space heaters when you get cold. You pay for them.

You're not getting how it works, though. It's not Canadian Tire who will eat this loss. It's their supplier. And yeah, it's not spelled SuPpLiEr. Suppliers are actual business run and owned by actual people. If you need a heater borrow one from a friend (free) or buy one.

Interesting... I wasn’t for the idea, and if you don’t own a space heater you absolutely should. It just makes sense.

But, For my own interest, why would the supplier eat this? Are items sold at Canadian tire on consignment? I thought they purchased product in bulk, to then sell. They own it, no? I know nothing about this world. Way off topic so I’m sorry about that.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Yeah, I know his family was freezing, so he needed to buy some space heaters. You don't get to steal time with space heaters when you get cold. You pay for them.

You're not getting how it works, though. It's not Canadian Tire who will eat this loss. It's their supplier. And yeah, it's not spelled SuPpLiEr. Suppliers are actual business run and owned by actual people. If you need a heater borrow one from a friend (free) or buy one.

Isn't jroc an actual person too? I get what you're saying, but if we're worried about food on the table, the dude already has to pay for a new furnace, which is way above the cost any individual person on the supply side is going to feel for Canadian Tire accepting returned product within the return window.

How is it different than anything else? How is it different than deciding "oh, actually I don't like this, so I'm going to return it because I can."

I bought a new phone and didn't like the colour, so I returned it and got a different one. They're not going to re-sell it as new, so they'll take a loss on it while I walk away just fine. Was I supposed to keep it for moral reasons?

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Isn't jroc an actual person too? I get what you're saying, but if we're worried about food on the table, the dude already has to pay for a new furnace, which is way above the cost any individual person on the supply side is going to feel for Canadian Tire accepting returned product within the return window.

How is it different than anything else? How is it different than deciding "oh, actually I don't like this, so I'm going to return it because I can."

I bought a new phone and didn't like the colour, so I returned it and got a different one. They're not going to re-sell it as new, so they'll take a loss on it while I walk away just fine. Was I supposed to keep it for moral reasons?

Well the difference there is clearly ‘intent’.

[Shin Pad]

I get not wanting to buy a bunch of space heaters that you will only use once. Instead of buying them with the full intent of returning them after use, why not just rent some space heaters.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

Interesting... I wasn’t for the idea, and if you don’t own a space heater you absolutely should. It just makes sense.

But, For my own interest, why would the supplier eat this? Are items sold at Canadian tire on consignment? I thought they purchased product in bulk, to then sell. They own it, no? I know nothing about this world. Way off topic so I’m sorry about that.

Okay, I'll tell you my understanding of how this world works and maybe somebody else with more knowledge can chime in.

I own a manufacturing company. Over the past five or six years, I have made some contacts in China that do some of my manufacturing for me on cookie cutter-type items. As such, I can buy in bulk for insanely low prices. Pretty much how everyone making anything does stuff.

So, one of the biggest chain stores there is contacted me looking for some of my product. They would buy it all with a PO, but in the contract, there were these red flags:

• All returns I would have to pay to have shipped back to me. They wouldn't throw them out if it was cheaper than shipping them. I had to bring them back at my expense.
• They could change the price at any time they wanted to move product. If they lowered the price to below the cost at which they paid for them, I had to pay them the difference. For example, if I sold them a product at $10, and they sold it on sale for $6, I then owed them four more dollars. Seems unfair? Yeah, it is, but they're not negotiating any of these points with somebody my size; the risk is 100% on me and 0% on them.
• If they decide they no longer want to sell my product, I have to buy it all back from them and pay to ship it back to me. Imagine outfitting every store in Canada with multiple locations in each town and city with my product and potentially having to buy it all back or pay them if they sell at a price below cost.

It's an incredible risk, and if your product is already in the stores that means the grinded the #### out of you on price to even stock it in the first place. Your margins are razor thin, so you're counting on the bulk sales. Every return cuts into that margin. These big stores bankrupt businesses taking on the enormous risk of supplying them.

Ever bought something from a store like Home Depot, Wal-Mart, Costco, etc. and try to get spare parts and they tell you they don't sell that line anymore? Yeah, it's often because the company who supplied them won't do it again or is bankrupt.

When I was approached to supply one of these huge stores I was really excited at first...like I thought my ship had come in. After reading the contract, I felt nothing but pity for people that sign on and supply to the big stores. I think you need to be big enough to have some negotiating power or your margins have to be high enough that you can swallow the shenanigans customers and big box stores try to pull on you. At my size, it was a non-starter, but I know guys my size and a lot bigger who have dabbled with these big stores and totally lost their shirts.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Isn't jroc an actual person too? I get what you're saying, but if we're worried about food on the table, the dude already has to pay for a new furnace, which is way above the cost any individual person on the supply side is going to feel for Canadian Tire accepting returned product within the return window.

How is it different than anything else? How is it different than deciding "oh, actually I don't like this, so I'm going to return it because I can."

I bought a new phone and didn't like the colour, so I returned it and got a different one. They're not going to re-sell it as new, so they'll take a loss on it while I walk away just fine. Was I supposed to keep it for moral reasons?

I appreciate his situation. It's a dog-eat-dog world so if he's totally strapped financially and can't afford the expense of the furnace repair and the heaters, then yes, fata over whoever you have to in order to keep you family warm. No question. If you have the means to do this the right way, though, then that's the way it should be done IMO.

[jroc]

Given that these big box stores have a favourable return policy, I don't think I'll feel too guilty. For the record, I realize now how valuable it is to have a space heater on hand, so I will be keeping 1 or 2 of them.

Always love the twists and turns a discussion can take on CP!

As an update to the OP, it seems like the insulation outside has done the trick for now, so hopefully we're in the clear!

[jroc]

Sliver- I appreciate your insight!

Just curious though, why won't these box stores sell an opened/returned item anymore? If my $120 space heater has a cost of $60, wouldn't they still be in a good spot to sell it to the next guy for $90?

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by jroc

Sliver- I appreciate your insight!

Just curious though, why won't these box stores sell an opened/returned item anymore? If my $120 space heater has a cost of $60, wouldn't they still be in a good spot to sell it to the next guy for $90?

I'm guessing here because I don't know, but I think it's because then they would eat that loss, whereas they'd rather stick the loss onto the supplier. They're out $0 if they make the supplier take it back. They're out $30 if they sell it as an open box. They're then out an additional $30 on that one sale if they just cannibalized a sale from new at full price.

I do see open box stuff at Best Buy sometimes - I think those were floor models or demos, though.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I'm guessing here because I don't know, but I think it's because then they would eat that loss, whereas they'd rather stick the loss onto the supplier. They're out $0 if they make the supplier take it back. They're out $30 if they sell it as an open box. They're then out an additional $30 on that one sale if they just cannibalized a sale from new at full price.

I do see open box stuff at Best Buy sometimes - I think those were floor models or demos, though.

Not sure I can civil towards you anymore what that god awful signature line.

Unless you did it ironically. In which case that is hilarious.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Not sure I can civil towards you anymore what that god awful signature line.

Unless you did it ironically. In which case that is hilarious.

Hahaha, it's ironic. A sincere one from me would be more like Hate. Hate. Hate.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Hahaha, it's ironic. A sincere one from me would be more like Hate. Hate. Hate.

As I’m sure it is for most people, it’s rare that I laugh out loud when I read something. But man did I laugh when I noticed your signature the other day.

[The Yen Man]

It all depends on the what's been negotiated with a vendor, and I'm sure it depends on the products being returned too. Some negotiate a returns allowance where they automatically knock off say 5% from their price from the vendor, so the retailer ends up eating any returns costs, rather than have to deal with all the logistics and shipping costs to send back a defective item. Others make the supplier eat the cost. Either way, someone is losing.

Returns are really meant to be for defective items, something that didn't perform as expected, or for people who regretted buying it, but haven't used it yet. People just take advantage of generous returns policies because they can, and businesses just chalk it up to a sunk "marketing" cost to keep people returning knowing they have great returns policies that can be abused (see Costco).

I mean, ethically what the OP is doing is wrong, it just is. But it doesn't stop people from doing it. Heck, I know of people who buy fancy clothes, don't rip of the tag, and return it after they wear it a couple times. They can do it, doesn't mean it's not a questionable thing to do.

[Calgary14]

The problem with new furnaces (IMO) is that they are too complicated and high efficiency = high maintenance. If the furnace is 5 years old and has had regular maintenance done I don't think it's unreasonable to be annoyed if something fails, it's supposed to last 20 years.

If I had my choice I would take an old school furnace any day over a high efficiency one. My furnace is 8 years old and Ive had a ton of issues with it.

[Ducay]

Sliver hit the nail on the head and took on the good fight (is it a bad sign Sliver is on your side? maybe I've changed my mind).

Anyways, just because it's an emergency doesn't mean you get to screw over a company (like Sliver said, someone somewhere is getting the shaft). And if you can morally justify it in your head because its a big company or something, then by all means, that's for you to live with (and rest of us pay for it). And even if you've got someone like Cro suggesting it, doesn't make it moral thing to do. Keep it to yourself and drive on.

[Flamenspiel]

Nm.