[News] All-encompassing Bennett trade discussions thread

[djsFlames]

How's Kadri done in Colorado anyways?

Edit: Looks like he's been playing at a solid 2C level there.

It would've been a good addition.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I've been an advocate for making changes to the forward group, and I still am. But if the market isn't there, the market isn't there.

But let's remind ourselves what Tree did in the off-season
- He brought in a #1
- He turned over half his blueline
- he turned over the bottom 3 forward group

We can debate if that was enough, or even if those were the right moves. But it sure ain't standing still.

I mean if Markstrom and Tanev haven't won anybody over and cut tree just a little slack, I don't think there's anything that can be done. Markstrom is literally the biggest single most important acquisition of Trelivings tenure.

No trade or any other signing prior comes close. Even for me the Markstrom trom signing flew way under the radar until I actually watched him play for the Flames.

If nobody can see the massive, cosmic upgrade he is over what we have had since Kipper, well they're blind of deluded.

[bluejays]

Markstrom was a great signing. Was then, and has shown early on that it was great. However, what Treliving has done this off-season beside that has been absolutely mediocre.

The team has had top two line challenges since we were exposed last playoffs. He didn't address that at all.

The team has top end defence challenges pre-playoffs. He lost Hamonic and Brodie, and signed Tanev? Upgrade? More like a wash with losing Brodie. But where's the high end d-man probably needed to replace Hamilton from yesteryear? I realize there are budget constraints, but what percentage of the budget is tied up with the crap on the bottom two lines? All of that has been because of Trelivings management. That has been driving me nuts for awhile now. Off-load some of that so you can make signings for top line guys. Markstrom is going to wear out with what he has to put up with.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Hamilton? He last played for the Flames in 2018. What relevance does he have? Plus part of that deal was getting Hanifin.
The main problem within the team's cap is Lucic. We all know that. We all know that was because of a bad deal to sign Neal. So yeah - that's on him but saying "offload some of that" is far easier than done. Really Lucic is the only major issue. Ryan has been a good signing for the bulk of his deal.

[bluejays]

What I mean by Hamilton is a player of his calibre needs to be brought in. But knowing your hands are tied in contracts like Lucic, you have to be able to get rid of these guys. Lucic is the obvious one though. I look at the bottom two line guys like Backlund now, and while there's a two way aspect to him, at $5.3M for a third line guy ehh. I do think Backlund on the third line is perfect, but at that pay, just too much. Then there are guys like Simon and Nordstrom while getting paid almost minimum, they don't bring anything to the team to even earn that salary. Mangiapane I'm to some degree fine with because you're paying him for potential but this year he's taken a step back. But my point being, there's about $8MM sitting in forwards (including the obvious), most of which should not be in the NHL, and that's not talking about the Defence.


Edit: I'd also put Ryan in the overpaid category up front. $3.1/season at less than 0.5 ppg doesn't seem like great value.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by fleury

What I mean by Hamilton is a player of his calibre needs to be brought in. But knowing your hands are tied in contracts like Lucic, you have to be able to get rid of these guys. Lucic is the obvious one though. I look at the bottom two line guys like Backlund now, and while there's a two way aspect to him, at $5.3M for a third line guy ehh. I do think Backlund on the third line is perfect, but at that pay, just too much. Then there are guys like Simon and Nordstrom while getting paid almost minimum, they don't bring anything to the team to even earn that salary. Mangiapane I'm to some degree fine with because you're paying him for potential but this year he's taken a step back. But my point being, there's about $8MM sitting in forwards (including the obvious), most of which should not be in the NHL, and that's not talking about the Defence.

How exactly has Mangiapane taken a step back?

4 points in the last 4 games. He just had a slow start, much like a few others on the team.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan

How exactly has Mangiapane taken a step back?

4 points in the last 4 games. He just had a slow start, much like a few others on the team.

Could be a slow start, but we'll see if it continues.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by fleury

What I mean by Hamilton is a player of his calibre needs to be brought in. But knowing your hands are tied in contracts like Lucic, you have to be able to get rid of these guys. Lucic is the obvious one though. I look at the bottom two line guys like Backlund now, and while there's a two way aspect to him, at $5.3M for a third line guy ehh. I do think Backlund on the third line is perfect, but at that pay, just too much. Then there are guys like Simon and Nordstrom while getting paid almost minimum, they don't bring anything to the team to even earn that salary. Mangiapane I'm to some degree fine with because you're paying him for potential but this year he's taken a step back. But my point being, there's about $8MM sitting in forwards (including the obvious), most of which should not be in the NHL, and that's not talking about the Defence.


Edit: I'd also put Ryan in the overpaid category up front. $3.1/season at less than 0.5 ppg doesn't seem like great value.

This is such a terrible post.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

[868904]

Originally Posted by fleury

Markstrom was a great signing. Was then, and has shown early on that it was great. However, what Treliving has done this off-season beside that has been absolutely mediocre.

The team has had top two line challenges since we were exposed last playoffs. He didn't address that at all.

The team has top end defence challenges pre-playoffs. He lost Hamonic and Brodie, and signed Tanev? Upgrade? More like a wash with losing Brodie. But where's the high end d-man probably needed to replace Hamilton from yesteryear? I realize there are budget constraints, but what percentage of the budget is tied up with the crap on the bottom two lines? All of that has been because of Trelivings management. That has been driving me nuts for awhile now. Off-load some of that so you can make signings for top line guys. Markstrom is going to wear out with what he has to put up with.

I'm certainly not a fan of Treliving's coach choices, but I can understand the lack of a big splash up front. The only guy who the Flames had a realistic shot at was Hall and Toffoli. Hall would have been a gigantic albatross of a contract, with a lot of risk involved.

Toffoli wouldn't have been as big a risk but Tre clearly prioritized goalie and top 4 defenseman. Can't say I disagree with him here.

Flames didn't have a better option in goal than Markstrom, he was the best period and you have to go for that. As for Tanev, Flames needed another top 4, no question about it as there wasn't any player ready to step in, and no Valimaki was not ready to be a top 4, he wasn't ready in the offseason and he isn't ready now.

Up front, the Flames definitely needed help, but there was and still is the chance that Dube, Mangiapane or Bennett (coming off another big playoff) take that next step and if they do, then there is no need to commit big dollars and term to a guy like Toffoli.

Toffoli is off to a hot start, but there is no way he keeps this up. He's averaged 47 points a year throughout his career, he's not all of a sudden a 60 goal scorer. I don't think its a stretch to suggest that Dube and Mangiapane could average 47 points over the term of Toffoli's contract, especially if Toffoli is not on this roster blocking them from opportunities to put up points. I think Tre just believes that Toffoli isn't a huge upgrade on Dube and Mangiapane over the term that would have been required to sign him.

So it was a combination of getting the best goalie, shoring up the top 4 defense and having young players who could produce at a similar rate to a second tier UFA forward signing.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

This is such a terrible post.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

Thanks for the input. Care to talk about it?

[btimbit]

I would've LOVED to add a guy like Hoffman, but adding Markstrom and Tanev was just as necessary and we didn't have the cap room to do all 3. I'm fine with it

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by 868904

I'm certainly not a fan of Treliving's coach choices, but I can understand the lack of a big splash up front. The only guy who the Flames had a realistic shot at was Hall and Toffoli. Hall would have been a gigantic albatross of a contract, with a lot of risk involved.

Toffoli wouldn't have been as big a risk but Tre clearly prioritized goalie and top 4 defenseman. Can't say I disagree with him here.

Flames didn't have a better option in goal than Markstrom, he was the best period and you have to go for that. As for Tanev, Flames needed another top 4, no question about it as there wasn't any player ready to step in, and no Valimaki was not ready to be a top 4, he wasn't ready in the offseason and he isn't ready now.

Up front, the Flames definitely needed help, but there was and still is the chance that Dube, Mangiapane or Bennett (coming off another big playoff) take that next step and if they do, then there is no need to commit big dollars and term to a guy like Toffoli.

Toffoli is off to a hot start, but there is no way he keeps this up. He's averaged 47 points a year throughout his career, he's not all of a sudden a 60 goal scorer. I don't think its a stretch to suggest that Dube and Mangiapane could average 47 points over the term of Toffoli's contract, especially if Toffoli is not on this roster blocking them from opportunities to put up points. I think Tre just believes that Toffoli isn't a huge upgrade on Dube and Mangiapane over the term that would have been required to sign him.

So it was a combination of getting the best goalie, shoring up the top 4 defense and having young players who could produce at a similar rate to a second tier UFA forward signing.

Fair assessment. I wasn’t a fan of bringing in Toffoli in personally. That over a longer term seemed like the classic overpay scenario for essentially a third line player. He almost certainly took a pay cut to be with Montreal so it worked out for them. Again it comes down to money and the albatross of the contract with Lucic. Totally avoidable and will continue to handcuff the team unless he’s bought out this off-season. I expected more from trellising trade wise. I was always up for Hall but knew there wasn’t enough money in the pot for two stars so it had to be done via deal and it takes two to tango. So it didn’t work out but this team save goaltending is not better than last year so I beg the question to CP again, why do we keep giving the team a free pass? The cost structure seems off.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by fleury

Thanks for the input. Care to talk about it?

- Backlund is not a third-line player.
- Mangiapane has given no indication at all to suggest that he has taken a step back.
- $3.0 m is the going rate for about 30-40 points production on the UFA market, which is precisely in line with what Ryan has provided.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

[timbit]

Originally Posted by 868904

I'm certainly not a fan of Treliving's coach choices, but I can understand the lack of a big splash up front. The only guy who the Flames had a realistic shot at was Hall and Toffoli. Hall would have been a gigantic albatross of a contract, with a lot of risk involved.

Toffoli wouldn't have been as big a risk but Tre clearly prioritized goalie and top 4 defenseman. Can't say I disagree with him here.

Flames didn't have a better option in goal than Markstrom, he was the best period and you have to go for that. As for Tanev, Flames needed another top 4, no question about it as there wasn't any player ready to step in, and no Valimaki was not ready to be a top 4, he wasn't ready in the offseason and he isn't ready now.

Up front, the Flames definitely needed help, but there was and still is the chance that Dube, Mangiapane or Bennett (coming off another big playoff) take that next step and if they do, then there is no need to commit big dollars and term to a guy like Toffoli.

Toffoli is off to a hot start, but there is no way he keeps this up. He's averaged 47 points a year throughout his career, he's not all of a sudden a 60 goal scorer. I don't think its a stretch to suggest that Dube and Mangiapane could average 47 points over the term of Toffoli's contract, especially if Toffoli is not on this roster blocking them from opportunities to put up points. I think Tre just believes that Toffoli isn't a huge upgrade on Dube and Mangiapane over the term that would have been required to sign him.

So it was a combination of getting the best goalie, shoring up the top 4 defense and having young players who could produce at a similar rate to a second tier UFA forward signing.

Excellent and very observant post.

Prioritizing , filling needs and evaluating progress of young players are imperative in evaluating the quality of a GM.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Hamilton? He last played for the Flames in 2018. What relevance does he have? Plus part of that deal was getting Hanifin.
The main problem within the team's cap is Lucic. We all know that. We all know that was because of a bad deal to sign Neal. So yeah - that's on him but saying "offload some of that" is far easier than done. Really Lucic is the only major issue. Ryan has been a good signing for the bulk of his deal.

Besides Lucic and Ryan being problems this year, I'd say the Brouwer and Stone buyouts aren't helping either.

I agree with you, you can unfairly cherry pick his mistakes but IMO under Treliving's tenure, the Flames have been below average stewards of their cap space. He is fortunate to be blessed with an ownership group that lets him spend to the cap, bury money in the minors and buy out his mistakes.

[Jiri Hrdina]

I agree that his cap management has not been good largely due to his free agency work. Though I maintain the Ryan deal is a fair one
But fleury is advocating off loading deals like Lucic. I just don’t see how that’s realistic.
The mistake isn’t not offloading Lucic. The mistake was signing James Neal

[Strange Brew]

I agree that any deal offloading Lucic is likely just too painful to endure. Ryan's deal is not definitively bad or great, but maybe there's a broader question of whether those cap dollars are being allocated in the right places for this club.

[btimbit]

Frankly, when our only bad contract past this year is the 3 million that Lucic gets overpaid, I'm really not too concerned. Every team has bad contracts, our situation there isn't that bad.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by btimbit

Frankly, when our only bad contract past this year is the 3 million that Lucic gets overpaid, I'm really not too concerned. Every team has bad contracts, our situation there isn't that bad.

we will still have $1.5 million in cap for 21/22 for Brouwer's buyout

[MrMike]

Originally Posted by btimbit

Frankly, when our only bad contract past this year is the 3 million that Lucic gets overpaid, I'm really not too concerned. Every team has bad contracts, our situation there isn't that bad.

I love the guy and it may not be the worst, but Gio at 6.75 next year might be considered as well.