[News] All-encompassing Bennett trade discussions thread

[Sec214]

Proof reading should be a writers requirement for nhltraderumors.me

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

As I mentioned the other day, my sarcasm detector is broken as a result of the past two weeks.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

Should that be in the US politics thread?

Or is it Flames’ play since the break related?

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by codynw

It's not just a Ward thing though. It's a common complaint from all fanbases about their coaches and it's baffling. Why do we understand but these paid professionals don't?

Probably multiple factors, including because he is too close to the team to be objective. And too busy to think clearly. Under too much pressure.

By having that ability to step back and look at things from a detached and a holistic perspective, plus ample time to critique, often with full benefit of hindsight, the armchair coach has an advantage that the frazzled, overwhelmed rookie head coach simply can not

[genetic_phreek]

I'm sure Tre is having a pissing contest. Felt blindsided by Bennetts camp about changing scenery so got Ward to scratch him for a game. Remember when Kulak wouldn't sign so he got put on waivers right away. Tre likes to flex. Former ECHLer.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by codynw

It's not just a Ward thing though. It's a common complaint from all fanbases about their coaches and it's baffling. Why do we understand but these paid professionals don't?

First of all, I am not saying I could coach an NHL team. I am not even saying I could coach a midget or bantam team when it comes to "people management" or "x's and o's". I probably wouldn't want to coach a timbit team and deal with the parents either. I complete acknowledge that coaching is a skillset with nuances that require experience.

That said, to answer your question - I think it's coaches overvaluing the wrong things because their biases are so ingrained into their perception.


But I am saying that I wouldn't default to "veteran experience" while the game has apparently passed guys like Giordano and Lucic by. It's one of those biases where people who live and breathe the game as a career are simply stubborn and would rather see a declining player make mistakes because they've earned it in the distant past than seeing an up-and-comer who is earning it in the present be given a chance to flourish.

Special teams is another one. Do we really believe Ward is stupid enough to think Nordstrom is one of our best 5v5 players? Of course not. But since Nordstrom is a go-to penalty killer he is given that 5v5 icetime as a byfunction. Where we as fans differ however is that a lot of forwards could be killing those penalties with marginal losses to the PK structure. Plenty of guys can kill a penalty, and have had success killing penalties. Sean Monahan is a guy who used to kill penalties well for Hartley. Sam Bennett is a guy who used to kill penalties well for Gulutzan. Andrew Mangiapane used to kill penalties at every level he played before he became an NHLer. You shouldn't need to sign a player just to kill penalties or add PP assists if they're not also a strong 5v5 player. Treliving has been particularily guilty of overvaluing special teams every offseason. And then he has to buy out lance bouma or troy brouwer.

Size and truculence is another one of those biases. Of course you want players who compete out there and impose their will. But ultimately chasing these bonuses as a necessary element is putting the cart before the horse and you end up with Zac Rinaldo in the lineup for just about every playoff loss last year.

"linemate consistency" is another bias where they think players will be confused playing with someone new. When something isn't working, coaches are reluctant to make a change and upsetting that consistency. When Gaudreau and Monahan weren't working for 1.5 years, how often were they split? When Hanifin and Hamonic weren't working, did it not take a Hamonic injury to finally split them? And now we have Giordano and Andersson simply not working, but hey, they have to work because trying a Valimaki up the lineup is risky.

What paid professionals seem to miss is that one bad shift by an exploited line or d pair can completely swing momentum for the rest of a period. As fans, our mindset is "don't play units that actively sabatoge your momentum". As coaches and GMs, their mindset tends to be "you need energy lines to go around and bring energy and hit things and be able to fight rawr".

It's a philosophical difference, not one of coaching skill. Glen Gulutzan is probably a smarter coach than all of CP combined. But what does that matter if philosophically he is going to throw his trusty vets Stajan and Brouwer out there for every big penalty kill?

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

I’m also not ruling out the possibility that I’m a better head coach than most nhl coaches. And cfl coaches. And nfl coaches. And mlb managers. Plus World Jrs, ncaa football, F1 team boss. You know what, let’s simplify, if it’s a sport I watch, even casually, I could coach it flawlessly.

Oh and head scout in all the above. And GM. Especially GM. But especially head scout. But especially coach.

Hell throw in the nba. I could coach a super team for sure.

I would also be the perfect owner who would never meddle. Because I’d also be GM, coach and head scout. I’d also be the mascot. I’d also put myself on the team. Nothing crazy though, just an “A” for me. Gio can still be captain. For now...

Impressive.

Most people who post here are merely better than any Flames coach, GM, scout, etc. on top of the careers/jobs they presumably have. Many are also parents, no less.

It’s pretty rare to find a collection of genius such as what we have here at CP. astounding, really.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

I haven’t seen any indication that Bennett dictated that final decision. Nor would I assume he did because a coach asked where he preferred to play... People are digging way too deep into this.

Did you hear what Ward said?

I agree that we don't need to need to make too big an issue of a coaches public statements. But a poster made a comment that they thought it was odd that Ward would say this to the media and that's what people are talking about. I haven't seen anyone say that it should be the basis for evaluating Ward as a coach. People just want to discuss it.

Ward literally said that Bennett was switched from centre to wing because Bennett asked to be switched from centre to wing. I personally don't believe Ward lets his players dictate where they play, so he clearly wanted to give the impression that the club was bending over backwards for the player. Not hard to see why that might have irritated an already uncomfortable situation.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Did you hear what Ward said?

I agree that we don't need to need to make too big an issue of a coaches public statements. But a poster made a comment that they thought it was odd that Ward would say this to the media and that's what people are talking about. I haven't seen anyone say that it should be the basis for evaluating Ward as a coach. People just want to discuss it.

Ward literally said that Bennett was switched from centre to wing because Bennett asked to be switched from centre to wing. I personally don't believe Ward lets his players dictate where they play, so he clearly wanted to give the impression that the club was bending over backwards for the player. Not hard to see why that might have irritated an already uncomfortable situation.

Did you? To be honest I haven’t seen an actual quote on it. Or a quote in context.

But yes, two reporters said he was “given the choice” (unquoted, and paraphrased). That doesn’t mean his choice is going to be final. It’s a coach feeling out where players are comfortable, for the benefit of the team.

Isn’t this exactly what we complained about for 2 seasons about Brodie’s deployment? Player wanted to play right side, coach didn’t care. Player sucked.

[Red]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

Did you? To be honest I haven’t seen an actual quote on it. Or a quote in context.

But yes, two reporters said he was “given the choice” (unquoted, and paraphrased). That doesn’t mean his choice is going to be final. It’s a coach feeling out where players are comfortable, for the benefit of the team.

I heard it. Ward has talking to the press and seemed offended that Bennett wanted to leave. He said that they had talks with him and he was given a choice where to play.

Heres the video.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/video/w...?show_id=13373

[Heavy Jack]

Man when I read those quotes from Bennett it’s a damned piss off. Highest pick ever for the organization and his moustache is going to be his biggest mark on the club. He really doesn’t get it still and at this point I just want to be done with waiting for 18 YO Sam Bennett to take off. News flash Sam it’s been 6 years and you are a proverbial top 5 bust and a bigger disappointment than Fata because the high hopes were real and the fans hung on to them for a long time. Don’t let the door hit ya on the way out.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Red

I heard it. Ward has talking to the press and seemed offended that Bennett wanted to leave. He said that they had talks with him and he was given a choice where to play.

Heres the video.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/video/w...?show_id=13373

Thanks for the link. That’s exactly what I needed to solidify my stance. “We basically gave Sam a choice”

I don’t understand the “seems offended take”, he says a few times, “everybody is good” “he comes and gives you what he has every night”, “there is no issue here”, “he stands in good stead (??) in our room”

Just for clarity, my thesis statement is: I don’t see any issue whatsoever with a coach finding out what position a player feels more comfortable in. I am not defending Wards coaching, I am not defending Bennett’s play. Both have been disappointing. But this inquiry and subsequent position change is a non-issue.... outside of the fact the player didn’t improve.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

So Bennett is not a healthy scratch tonight, correct? Time to lock this thread down?

[flambers]

Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug

So Bennett is not a healthy scratch tonight, correct? Time to lock this thread down?

We won't know until the game day skate if Bennett is in the lineup.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Impressive.

Most people who post here are merely better than any Flames coach, GM, scout, etc. on top of the careers/jobs they presumably have. Many are also parents, no less.

It’s pretty rare to find a collection of genius such as what we have here at CP. astounding, really.

I'm no genius but I hated the Gulutzan hire from day one as I felt he wasn't an NHL head coach and I hated the Hamonic trade when it was announce. I know I'm not the only fan that felt that way. That's saying something when a group of fans can tell right away when some big moves by the GM are not good. I didn't like the Ward hire and to date there's been nothing to show that he was the right hire. This isn't a matter of fans being geniuses and more that the GM that gets paid good money to make decisions isn't doing a very good job.

[Bingo]

Man the extremes again.

Sam Bennett is a well liked player in the dressing room, he's likely not calling teammates scrubs, etc.

But he wasn't beyond being a healthy scratch as his numbers are terrible this year, both counting and underlying. His game against Winnipeg (pre scratch) was one of the worst he played this year (only Dube was worse in that loss) so he got scratched.

Did Ward handle it in the most pleasant way? Doesn't look like it ... but then this is the week where the player through an agent dropped a bomb on the team during a game in Montreal and didn't go through the proper channels.

I'm not supporting Ward.
I'm not supporting Bennett.

But the drama is getting a little rich in this thread. Non performing player asks for trade, doesn't do it through the proper channels, plays even more poorly, and team is annoyed with him and scratches him without explanation.

Seems like a logical path to me.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I'm no genius but I hated the Gulutzan hire from day one as I felt he wasn't an NHL head coach and I hated the Hamonic trade when it was announce. I know I'm not the only fan that felt that way. That's saying something when a group of fans can tell right away when some big moves by the GM are not good. I didn't like the Ward hire and to date there's been nothing to show that he was the right hire. This isn't a matter of fans being geniuses and more that the GM that gets paid good money to make decisions isn't doing a very good job.

Great, now go back and retrospectively assess every hot take you got wrong. Tell me where the percentages end up when you compare the good and bad takes.

[Loyal and True]

Originally Posted by Red

I heard it. Ward has talking to the press and seemed offended that Bennett wanted to leave. He said that they had talks with him and he was given a choice where to play.

Heres the video.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/video/w...?show_id=13373

I agree with Bingo there is way too much drama in this story, but my point is that Ward is creating it or at least escalating it and that is bush league.

The full 8 min pre game interview (Feb 1) is on the Flames website. First 3 mins are other topics.

Then the Bennett question from Wes Gilbertson was "did/will you discuss with Sam that the situation won't be a distraction". The first half of his answer was a perfect and professional response. Then he goes a different direction all on his own.

There was nothing asked about playing Sam at centre/wing or anything like that. Ward put that out there to ward off any criticism of his deployment of Bennett.

Seems defensive and insecure from the Head Coach. If nothing else this feeds a media story and thus increases the noise surrounding the team.

Then the healthy scratch and separation from the regular group sends the media in a complete tailspin and creates all kinds of drama.

[nieuwy-89]

I’ve always cheered for Sam. And this is a sad way for the teams highest-ever draft pick to treat the City and the Franchise. But in a way he’s done the team, and the fans, a favour by forcing the issue.

The Bennett era is over. Time to talk about who will take his place as the physical and emotional playoff leader this team will need, IF it makes it to the playoffs again with this core. ( note the big IF)

I’m just glad I dodged a bullet by not getting a Bennett retro jersey after the playoffs last year.

[Red]

Originally Posted by Loyal and True

I agree with Bingo there is way too much drama in this story, but my point is that Ward is creating it or at least escalating it and that is bush league.

The full 8 min pre game interview (Feb 1) is on the Flames website. First 3 mins are other topics.

Then the Bennett question from Wes Gilbertson was "did/will you discuss with Sam that the situation won't be a distraction". The first half of his answer was a perfect and professional response. Then he goes a different direction all on his own.

There was nothing asked about playing Sam at centre/wing or anything like that. Ward put that out there to ward off any criticism of his deployment of Bennett.

Seems defensive and insecure from the Head Coach. If nothing else this feeds a media story and thus increases the noise surrounding the team.

Then the healthy scratch and separation from the regular group sends the media in a complete tailspin and creates all kinds of drama.

This is only too dramatic because it's in Calgary. The same guys that are trying to cool things down here would be salivating at the opportunity to trash the Oilers or Canucks if this situation was unfolding there.

Agree on Ward. He should not have made any comments about deployment.
This reminds me of Gilbert. An assistant gets promoted, flexes a bit, a core player gets ran out of town. With the difference that Savard was a great offensive player while Bennett is a spare part. But he is one of the longest serving Flames and is a known name, highest draft pick and all.

My take is that Sam didnt handle this properly. Should have kept his request behind closed door. Unless he had, but this was taking too long. Either way, Flames will be fine without him.

Ward on the other hand handled it terribly. He came off insecure and petty. He shouldn't have commented at all. Out of respect he should have let Sam know about the scratch.Why not just give a cliche answer? Sam wants a change, we will miss him, but it's on to Tre to fill the roster. I am here to coach and winning next game is my focus.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Red

This is only too dramatic because it's in Calgary. The same guys that are trying to cool things down here would be salivating at the opportunity to trash the Oilers or Canucks if this situation was unfolding there.

Agree on Ward. He should not have made any comments about deployment.
This reminds me of Gilbert. An assistant gets promoted, flexes a bit, a core player gets ran out of town. With the difference that Savard was a great offensive player while Bennett is a spare part. But he is one of the longest serving Flames and is a known name, highest draft pick and all.

My take is that Sam didnt handle this properly. Should have kept his request behind closed door. Unless he had, but this was taking too long. Either way, Flames will be fine without him.

Ward on the other hand handled it terribly. He came off insecure and petty. He shouldn't have commented at all. Out of respect he should have let Sam know about the scratch.Why not just give a cliche answer? Sam wants a change, we will miss him, but it's on to Tre to fill the roster. I am here to coach and winning next game is my focus.

Nm