[GDT] It Begins! Flames @ Jets

[Strange Brew]

I will be curious to see what Flames do if they find themselves down a goal in the third and shortening the bench. We’d definitely see some guys move around.

Hopefully doesn’t come to that though.

Why are people so uptight about the debate over who the top 12 forwards should be? I don’t see anyone making players whipping boys just yet.

[Ashasx]

I hope the PGT is not so abrasive after tonight's loss, as is the Flames' season opening tradition.

[Harry Lime]

Originally Posted by SeanCharles

I feel like Dube-Bennett should have been the pair.

They have great chemistry.

Bennett doesn't get Dube, Bennett gets Nordstrom.
"What about Ryan, at least?"
NO. Bennett gets Nordstrom. Don't make me go get Rinaldo.

[Beatle17]

Originally Posted by neo45

It’s not our biggest problem, it’s just an unnecessary one

Biggest problem is teams figuring out our two biggest offensive weapons and their perceived lack of ability to adjust or contribute positively when they aren’t scoring

So, much the same as every teams leading scorers not scoring then.

[AustinL_NHL]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Beneficial to on ice only, or to the team’s situation in general? Cap hit is a real thing, especially if you can save up for later. Especially since Bennett is playing centre and you maybe don’t need Ryan’s skill set and minutes as much.

I do completely agree with you and overall, the Flames' plan seems to be to use Ryan a lot more often than not this year so I'm not too worried about Nordstrom being a mainstay.

My thinking is that there's no reason to play Nordstrom in the lineup over Ryan (the significantly better player) unless it is purely for cap reasons because the Flames believe they have a legitimate opportunity at someone like PLD and therefore are creating the extra cap space necessary.

However, even as a RW'er, I'd still much prefer Ryan as he's a right shot and can take faceoffs on his strong side while also being able to play up and down the lineup unlike Nordstrom

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Hells Bells

I like Leivo with Gaudreau/Monahan much more than Simon.

Now if they could get Ryan on that line with Mangiapane/Backlund, and move Simon with Lucic/Bennett, the lines would be perfect IMO.

This is what I think they should have started with too.

[Sylvanfan]

Outside of a couple of scrimmages do we know what today's Derek Ryan has to offer. He is at the age where it's well within reason to expect to see some sort of decline in his game. I thought as last season wore on, he was less and less effective, and in the bubble. So has he lost enough of a step where he now struggles to keep up, and a high hockey IQ can no longer bridge some of the other deficiencies he has?

Data gives us past performance, and but there's also demographical data that would suggest that we have seen the best of this player and future performance is not likely to match past performance.

Flames winning season openers is like wins in the Honda Center.

[Nelson]

https://twitter.com/kent_wilson/stat...780829697?s=21

Kent Wilson is implying Ryan is playing. Geoff Ward might be planning a surprise? He specifically said they weren’t making any changes.

[Toonage]

Yeah, cause that'll throw the Jets.

Actually it might.

[Knut]

It is crazy to me how upset people are at the 12th Forward in the lineup. It has minimal impact on the game. It is exciting to me to see how he plays. First time for a new team trying to secure a roll, I bet Nordstrom is flying out there.

[Patek23]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

The Nordstrom vs Ryan debate isn't so clear-cut in my opinion. I do think that the cap hit is what really is driving this at the moment, but perhaps it is also a match-up question. Nordstrom does bring in faster foot-speed and physicality, which makes him a useful forechecker.


The PK difference is moot in my opinion - Ryan has great FO ability, but Nordstrom is quicker and has a longer reach. I think they are both very effective on the PK.


Personally, I am happy that Ryan is out and Nordstrom is in, if only to see what the new guy can do. I really like Ryan and I do feel he really contributes on the Flames - overpaid for his role or not, he contributes. However, if the Flames can save money while experiencing the same level of results, I will be happy too. Tonight we can see how Nordstrom fits in and what he brings to the table as a Flame.

This is exactly it. If Ryan is playing on your 4th line the difference between him and Nordstrom is negligible. Your better to leave Ryan on the taxi squad. If we get a injury in the top 6 thats where Ryan comes in and is better suited to slot up. But until then your better to max out your cap savings. Dressing a 3 million 4th liner doesnt make sense when we already over paid guys in our bottom 6.

[AustinL_NHL]

Originally Posted by Flaming Homer

This is exactly it. If Ryan is playing on your 4th line the difference between him and Nordstrom is negligible. Your better to leave Ryan on the taxi squad. If we get a injury in the top 6 thats where Ryan comes in and is better suited to slot up. But until then your better to max out your cap savings. Dressing a 3 million 4th liner doesnt make sense when we already over paid guys in our bottom 6.

I don't agree. While the cap savings definitely has it's benefits, putting that aside, it's still much better to have Ryan in the lineup over Nordstrom.

Instantly changes the 4th line from a line you want to limit minutes to and just hope they don't get scored on when they're on the ice to another line that you can hope for to produce offense while also playing good defensive hockey.

It seems negligible, but it really changes the complexion of the entire line

[Patek23]

Originally Posted by AustinL_NHL

I don't agree. While the cap savings definitely has it's benefits, putting that aside, it's still much better to have Ryan in the lineup over Nordstrom.

Instantly changes the 4th line from a line you want to limit minutes to and just hope they don't get scored on when they're on the ice to another line that you can hope for to produce offense while also playing good defensive hockey.

It seems negligible, but it really changes the complexion of the entire line

If I recall correctly Nordstrom was a player alot of Bruins fans were sad to see go. Maybe we give him a chance? Rather then get all hyped up about twitter analytics and how 4th line Ryan is soooo much better then 4th line Nordstrom.... its 8-12 minutes a game of eating minutes realistically and the defensive part of his game is supposed to be Nordstroms strengths. I also like how hes a bit bigger.


Last comment not directed at you personally btw.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by AustinL_NHL

There's a slight difference between simply watching hockey games (very few, if any people on this forum have watched anywhere near enough Bruins games to get a good judgement on Nordstrom) and blindly listening to the "Oh. He played the most PK minutes on the Bruins so he must be good on the PK!" talk and accepting it as fact when stats show he was average at best and no where close to the "Elite PK'er" talk that some are suggesting.

Anyone suggesting having Nordstrom in the lineup over Ryan is beneficial to the Flames is just simply wrong.

My point is, the discussion between the two groups would be completely different.

Four CPa fans sitting around a table:
CPa1 "I hear Nordstrom is going to play the first game and Ryan is a scratch"
CPa2 "Oh, well let's see how he does. I hear he played a lot on Boston's penalty kill and was well regarded by Bruin fans."
CPa3 "In the limited Bruin games I've watched I think his play has been fair. Let's see what he can do"
CPa4 "I think Ryan is a better player than Nordstrom"
CPa1 "Well, we know what Ryan can do, and with no preseason they probably want to evaluate Nordstrom first, rather than sticking him on taxi out of the gate. Nordstrom needs to learn the system too."
CPa2 "Nordstrom is also 6 years younger, and less cap hit so if he plays well then they know what they have and can make better educated decisions going forward."
CPa3 "Let's watch the games and see what happens I guess"
CPa4 "Yep, Go Flames!"

Four CPb fans sitting around a table:
CPa1 "I hear Nordstrom is going to play the first game and Ryan is a scratch"
CPa2 "That makes no sense. Ryan is a way better player"
CPa3 "I can't believe they waived Ryan. That was risky. Nordstrom sucks."
CPa4 "I saw Nordstrom's fancy stats on Twitter. He's no good"
CPa1 "What if we just wait and see how the analytics look after he gets a chance?"
CPa2 "No way, his xFor60xyz, yforDGaf and bdqPer40 rank him 201681610"
CPa3 "Totally, I can't wait to see the spreadsheets after tonight. I'll be posting and texting toldyasos all night"
Cpa1 "Anyone seen him play before?"
Cpa2 "No"
Cpa3 "Nope"
Cpa4 "I saw him on the ice in a goal against highlight. I think. I was drunk"

[camm13]

Originally Posted by Nelson

https://twitter.com/kent_wilson/stat...780829697?s=21

Kent Wilson is implying Ryan is playing. Geoff Ward might be planning a surprise? He specifically said they weren’t making any changes.

Tweet is no longer there, all I see is him ranting how ryan should be in and how nordstrom is the lesser of the two players

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Nordstrom, among B's F's, had the most SHTOI per game played for the 3rd best PK in the entire league last year.

Fancy stats....he "wasnt that good" at PK though.

Nordstrom was 36th in xga/60 shorthanded last year (forwards with 75+ minutes). That would be first on the Flames and ahead of Ryan who was Calgary's best.

So don't go after fancy stats, as they support your argument.

I think you said it earlier ... they should dress both, but to me having one in and not the other (especially Nordstrom) suggests they want to roll three lines hard, and use the other line for energy and PK.

I did see Bennett killing penalties in the ex game as well.

[Wastedyouth]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

My point is, the discussion between the two groups would be completely different.

Four CPa fans sitting around a table:
CPa1 "I hear Nordstrom is going to play the first game and Ryan is a scratch"
CPa2 "Oh, well let's see how he does. I hear he played a lot on Boston's penalty kill and was well regarded by Bruin fans."
CPa3 "In the limited Bruin games I've watched I think his play has been fair. Let's see what he can do"
CPa4 "I think Ryan is a better player than Nordstrom"
CPa1 "Well, we know what Ryan can do, and with no preseason they probably want to evaluate Nordstrom first, rather than sticking him on taxi out of the gate. Nordstrom needs to learn the system too."
CPa2 "Nordstrom is also 6 years younger, and less cap hit so if he plays well then they know what they have and can make better educated decisions going forward."
CPa3 "Let's watch the games and see what happens I guess"
CPa4 "Yep, Go Flames!"

Four CPb fans sitting around a table:
CPa1 "I hear Nordstrom is going to play the first game and Ryan is a scratch"
CPa2 "That makes no sense. Ryan is a way better player"
CPa3 "I can't believe they waived Ryan. That was risky. Nordstrom sucks."
CPa4 "I saw Nordstrom's fancy stats on Twitter. He's no good"
CPa1 "What if we just wait and see how the analytics look after he gets a chance?"
CPa2 "No way, his xFor60xyz, yforDGaf and bdqPer40 rank him 201681610"
CPa3 "Totally, I can't wait to see the spreadsheets after tonight. I'll be posting and texting toldyasos all night"
Cpa1 "Anyone seen him play before?"
Cpa2 "No"
Cpa3 "Nope"
Cpa4 "I saw him on the ice in a goal against highlight. I think. I was drunk"

You're not wrong.

the only difference would be during the game and after the analytics guys look at the numbers too and evaluate that way (using too small of a sample size) and are often more even keel.

The non-analytics guys will be wildly ecstatic or despondent to the point of inconsolability depending upon the result.

Haha. Both groups have their warts and benefits!

[Enoch Root]

One thing stats can never do is consider context. Even if Nordstrom is irrefutably worse than Ryan (it isn't irrefutable), there is still the matter of need - maybe the Flames felt that speed and size on the RW, based on who they think that line will be facing tonight, made the most sense.

"this guy is better, because these numbers say so" is just such a pedestrian argument.

[MrMike]

Originally Posted by Knut

It is crazy to me how upset people are at the 12th Forward in the lineup. It has minimal impact on the game. It is exciting to me to see how he plays. First time for a new team trying to secure a roll, I bet Nordstrom is flying out there.

Quite the opposite, I’m glad that right now that is really the only thing we can find to complain about.

Not who’s starting in net.

Not how Bennett should be playing center.

Not how Lindholm should be playing center.

It’s a nice break.

[Patek23]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

You're not wrong.

the only difference would be during the game and after the analytics guys look at the numbers too and evaluate that way (using too small of a sample size) and are often more even keel.

The non-analytics guys will be wildly ecstatic or despondent to the point of inconsolability depending upon the result.

Haha. Both groups have their warts and benefits!

It needs to be both. Analytics can be used to support an argument. They never should be THE argument. We have posters who likely have never even seen Nordstrom play saying without a doubt Ryan is the better fit. I think I'm going to take the NHL head coaches side on this one and maybe watch him play a game for us first. Ya know, like actually see him play a game with my own eyes before I cast such a judgement and not go off what Kent Wilson tells me on Twitter.