[GT] US election - It's 2020, what could possibly go wrong?

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Your overall point is that we have among the worst healthcare in the world and you're wrong period.

Last year Bloomberg ranked Canada as the #1 healthiest country out of 151 nations including all G-20 and P-20 nations.


https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/smaller-...iest-1.1222946

Our healthcare system isn't perfect but I'm glad we have it, I would be interested on what you would do to make it so much better?

That would be an interesting separate thread.

[Harry Lime]

Snuffleupaguses, Guys and Champs, one reason why Canada rates so well on Bloomberg's poll of healthiest countries in the world is that Canada has an overall superior social lean into healthy practices. Fewer smokers, less obesity (shut up Scandinavia!), and we were smart enough to throw depression and alcohol abuse into one tidy Made-In-Canada category. Our access to clean water and sanitation is generally top notch, and we usually take good care of our fresh water and environment. The health care system isn't the end all of our health, and makes me thankful that generally education on what it is to be healthy is actually taken seriously here (shut up Scandinavia!).

Part of good health is just being Canadian.

[flamesrule_kipper34]

I think there are a few weird things talked about here all of a sudden about Canada's healthcare system. But unfortunately I'll add.

In a nutshell, it's pretty bad here and there are a lot of reasons why that's the case that a few have already raised.

The sentiment that a few were trying to raise, I agree with, which is if we keep comparing ourselves ONLY against the trainwreck that is the US (e.g. mjssk g basic universal healthcare model) it's doing a huge disadvantage as to all of our own problem areas need to be improved.

Super high-level we really should introduce more semi-private options for those who can and want that option (and as someone suggested it could lessen the burden on the public options too).

Speaking from unfortunately personal experience, I continue to wade thru the current healthcare system and waits on some debilitating health issues that have affected me for a long time. Sadly taking the US as an example, if I was there my employer would pay for the large majority of this and I'd have had this likely resolved by now.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by flamesrule_kipper34

I think there are a few weird things talked about here all of a sudden about Canada's healthcare system. But unfortunately I'll add.

In a nutshell, it's pretty bad here and there are a lot of reasons why that's the case that a few have already raised.

The sentiment that a few were trying to raise, I agree with, which is if we keep comparing ourselves ONLY against the trainwreck that is the US (e.g. mjssk g basic universal healthcare model) it's doing a huge disadvantage as to all of our own problem areas need to be improved.

Super high-level we really should introduce more semi-private options for those who can and want that option (and as someone suggested it could lessen the burden on the public options too).

Speaking from unfortunately personal experience, I continue to wade thru the current healthcare system and waits on some debilitating health issues that have affected me for a long time. Sadly taking the US as an example, if I was there my employer would pay for the large majority of this and I'd have had this likely resolved by now.

Don't be so sure. People like to think that those with health insurance down here have all the access and things get taken care of lickity split. The reality is much different. Unless you're paying for it yourself you still have to wait for approval from your insurance company and they do nothing but deny, deny, deny. Getting service is not easy unless you're paying cash.

[flamesrule_kipper34]

Originally Posted by New Era

Don't be so sure. People like to think that those with health insurance down here have all the access and things get taken care of lickity split. The reality is much different. Unless you're paying for it yourself you still have to wait for approval from your insurance company and they do nothing but deny, deny, deny. Getting service is not easy unless you're paying cash.

I'm definitely using an anecdotal example and over simplifying.

Insurance or paying out of pocket, I'm really speaking to the option of having.a chance to pay allows for better access than we have here.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by flamesrule_kipper34

I'm definitely using an anecdotal example and over simplifying.

Insurance or paying out of pocket, I'm really speaking to the option of having.a chance to pay allows for better access than we have here.

And I'm telling you that unless you are independently wealthy you are not going to have the access you want. Speaking anecdotally, I had a minor sports related injury that needed treatment (minor surgery). It took two years of fighting with the insurance company to get the permission to have what I needed done. If I had $25K to front the insurance company, the one I pay $500 a month in premiums to, then I could have gone and had the treatment done and got on with my life. But I didn't want to pay for a procedure and roll the dice of the insurance company stiffing me, so I worked the process. So sure, if you have crazy amounts of money to throw around, and not mind rolling the dice that they may not pay you back, then you can likely skip the queue. But the reality is that the system is just as screwy down here and wait times are just as long, unless you want to pay up front.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by GGG

But progressives don’t just support any universal health care. They (based on primaries) want single payer and are opposed to public option. So the argument that progressives support policy that the majority wants (where I believe this started) is well founded. There is support in theUS for universal health care. There is not support for single payer

American progressives want any move to the left in regards to healthcare that they can get. Securing a system similar to European countries would be considered a big win (even if it falls well short of a full blown government-run or single payer system).

[Dion]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1343710418326458369

[flamesrule_kipper34]

Originally Posted by New Era

And I'm telling you that unless you are independently wealthy you are not going to have the access you want. Speaking anecdotally, I had a minor sports related injury that needed treatment (minor surgery). It took two years of fighting with the insurance company to get the permission to have what I needed done. If I had $25K to front the insurance company, the one I pay $500 a month in premiums to, then I could have gone and had the treatment done and got on with my life. But I didn't want to pay for a procedure and roll the dice of the insurance company stiffing me, so I worked the process. So sure, if you have crazy amounts of money to throw around, and not mind rolling the dice that they may not pay you back, then you can likely skip the queue. But the reality is that the system is just as screwy down here and wait times are just as long, unless you want to pay up front.

I really think we're going off topic here because of the anecdotal example I used about myself.

I'll also reiterate what I said in my OP which is the US system is NOT what I think Canada should be compared to (for good or for bad).

I should have really just said two things:

Semi-private makes a ton of sense and even to use your example, if you have the money and have something very debilitating then you should have the ability to pay for it and not have to worry about going thru a very very time consuming process (you should have that option)

Canada shouldn't rest its laurels on saying, "our healthcare is better than the US", we have SO much to improve on.

Apologies I think those two points were really the ones I was trying to make in my OP.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by flamesrule_kipper34

I really think we're going off topic here because of the anecdotal example I used about myself.

I'll also reiterate what I said in my OP which is the US system is NOT what I think Canada should be compared to (for good or for bad).

I should have really just said two things:

Semi-private makes a ton of sense and even to use your example, if you have the money and have something very debilitating then you should have the ability to pay for it and not have to worry about going thru a very very time consuming process (you should have that option)

Canada shouldn't rest its laurels on saying, "our healthcare is better than the US", we have SO much to improve on.

Apologies I think those two points were really the ones I was trying to make in my OP.

Canada technically doesn't have a ban or law against private healthcare providers. Any doctor is free to set up a private clinic.

The issue is that if they want to accept private patients, they need to completely opt out of the public system. Simply put, they cannot simultaneously charge patients for something and then charge the province for other patients.

It makes sense because all that would do is allow people to pay to jump queues. They need to be separate to ensure that people who cannot afford private care aren't being brushed aside for those that can.

There are a small number of private hospitals and clinics in Canada, but they are very exclusive. Here is one in Vancouver: https://www.cambiesurgery.com/ The owner of the hospital is a big proponent for trying to change the rules so that private practitioners can also accept public patients and bill the province. It's just not a politically popular movement.

[FurnaceFace]

Adam Kinzinger is on CNN. Man, there’s a guy I could vote for (if I was in that country.) He really comes across as level headed, pragmatic, and smart. Definitely a Republican not a Retrumplican.

[PugnaciousIntern]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Canada has a couple of challenges that don't really apply to most European countries, or even the U.S. when it comes to health care. Doctor shortages create long wait times which is the main criticism of our system. And at the risk of angering some people, we lure way too many doctors from countries that have absolutely horrible healthcare which doesn't help improve things here.

There are a lot of places in Canada that doctors just don't want to live in if they can help it, which creates doctors shortages. When you can ply your trade almost anywhere you want to in North America, it's difficult to convince the best ones to stay in or move to Canada. They can make more money and have a more desirable climate to live in just by going to the country next door. When it comes to luring talented doctors, we aren't a the top of the list for the same reason we aren't at the top of the list for luring top NHL free agents.

Criticizing socialized medicine for these failures is like criticizing Winnipeg for having a lousy film industry.

Sorry for nitpicking, but I don't like the phrase 'doctor shortage' as it misses the issue of wait times for specialists.

The term is appropriate in some situations. There are certainly places that have a shortage of MDs (rural and northern regions in particular, like you mentioned). Those shortages are typically GPs. It would be great to have specialists everywhere too but there's something to be said for centralizing health care in centres of excellence, and geographic distancing from rural regions is the consequence of that centralization. Virtual visits have become more popular especially in the last year for some reason, so it will be interesting to see how remote health care access can improve moving forwards.

But when dealing with specialists, there is actually an abundance of many types of specialists who are Canadian citizens, Canadian trained, and want to stay in Canada, but cannot find a job. This is especially true for surgeons, such as orthopedic and cardiac surgery. Adding a surgeon to a region costs more than paying for just the billing costs (overhead, administration, salary, etc). You also need physical OR space and staff, recovery ward and staff, and a variety of other costs. That means that instead of getting hired after becoming a surgeon/specialist, there is a 'credentialing inflation', where trained doctors putz around getting more letters after their name. For example in orthopedic surgery, after the undergrad and med school degrees (~4 years each) plus residency (5 years), they need a graduate degree (2-4+ years) plus multiple subspecialty fellowships (2+ years) to even be considered to work in an academic centre.

There are a lot of people out there who need a new hip, and a lot of surgeons living in Canada wanting to replace those hips, but nobody is offering them a job (and all the additional OR time and ward space that comes with it).

With all this said, I am still strongly supportive of the Canadian health act and the spirit of exclusive public health care. There are ways to make it work, and currently I would prefer to be a patient in Canada over the US any day of the week. I just want to clarify that a lack of willing MDs isn't the root issue in many of these discussions.

[MoneyGuy]

Originally Posted by FurnaceFace

Adam Kinzinger is on CNN. Man, there’s a guy I could vote for (if I was in that country.) He really comes across as level headed, pragmatic, and smart. Definitely a Republican not a Retrumplican.

I watched him, too. I really like him. Conversely, Rick Santorum as just on; I can’t stand the goof.

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by MoneyGuy

I watched him, too. I really like him. Conversely, Rick Santorum as just on; I can’t stand the goof.

yeah, i can't stand Santorum... I mean, I understand why they include him to at least provide some 'balance', but he definitely skews a lot to justifying Trump... maybe he's changed of late (unsure as i always change the channel when he comes on).

[Dion]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1343833813026287617

[savemedrzaius]

Originally Posted by peter12

Guy... that’s a survey. This proves my point. Canadian healthcare is a PR triumph. Haha, seriously did you just google “Canadian healthcare is the best?”

We are middling to poor in the OECD for wait times.

https://www.oecd.org/health/waiting-...42e3c8c-en.htm

We are good at triage care, but average at most other things.

https://www.oecd.org/canada/Health-a...ngs-CANADA.pdf

We also don’t spend all that much per capita on healthcare.

https://www.cihi.ca/en/how-does-cana...nternationally

Out of curiousity have you ever lived outside of Canada for an extended period of time? Just wondering what other country's healthcare system you have used in the past.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by savemedrzaius

Out of curiousity have you ever lived outside of Canada for an extended period of time? Just wondering what other country's healthcare system you have used in the past.

Denmark.

[Dan02]

Originally Posted by peter12

We also don’t spend all that much per capita on healthcare.

https://www.cihi.ca/en/how-does-cana...nternationally

You misread this one, it's not comparing overall healthcare spending, just hospitals, which could be a good thing as good primary care helps keep people out of hospitals in the first place.

While Canada is among the highest spenders on overall health care in the OECD, we spend less than most other countries on hospital services, at $1,766 per person,

[savemedrzaius]

Originally Posted by peter12

Denmark.

And you thought it was a lot better than Canada? Curious how? I've lived outside Canada for a while and think the system in Canada is quite fair on the whole. If you have a condition that needs immediate attention you go to the front of the line; if not expect to wait.

[ResAlien]

Today I believe the senate will be forced to vote whether or not to increase the cheque amount for people from the paltry $600 republicans wanted to the $2000 both democrats and trump want. A few of his senate acolytes have said they will support it because trump does, it will be interesting to see what happens today with McConnell and company.

Apologies for interrupting the Canadian healthcare thread with American politics news.