When will next season start? Return to Play Negotiations

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by MrMike

If I was a Sabres fan I wouldn’t be too happy about that. Almost impossible for them to finish in a playoff spot in that division now.

It's all part of the plan for the Hall homecoming in 2021.

[browna]

Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan

It's all part of the plan for the Hall homecoming in 2021.

Yes over under on 15 games in before the chatter begins in ernest about him and his pending FA status being moved to a contender on deadline day.

[getbak]

Ha, I forgot Hall signed with Buffalo.

[topfiverecords]

So Buffalo wins the lottery I guess

[Canada 02]

Originally Posted by Sidney Crosby's Hat

I feel like it's a miss to not have St. Louis and Chicago together. Minnesota would have to go west, though. Maybe it's because the Wild were stuck in the Northwest Division for all those years that they get a break here.

St Louis Blues radio said the Blues and Fox Sports Midwest preferred the start times for west away games over eastern start times

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Is this you being nice again? I missed that last time and maybe missed it again.

Again? I’m always ni...I mean, I’m usually nice.

Two sources have revenue at $1.7M and $1.8M per game. Math from there drives the revenue to 49%.

That's just as viable as your 36% from some obscure pay stats site.

A quick google search of nhl gate revenues will show you there is more than just one article article reporting the 36% figure.(to be fair the numbers I’ve seen reported range from 36-39%) I’m sure you already know that though. In any event I don’t think comparing the number of articles we’ve each linked is a very compelling argument when at the end of the day I’d(we’d?) really just like to see the data either of our sources used to come up with their numbers.

Some more math ...

NHL attendance last year was an average of 17,380 per game.
Average aftermarket ticket price was $135

17,380 x $135 = $2.4M per game, way more than $1.7M and that doesn't include concessions.

So after market is up from the average price? Fair response. But to get ticket revenue to 36% on it's own you have to drop the price to $74, and that still doesn't include any concession or merch sales at games.

36% just doesn't hold water, it's not that hard to support $1.7M to $1.8M

To be honest I don’t think the average resale price is a good example and actually may make a better argument for why the figures are much lower than you are trying to argue. Aftermarket ticket prices are likely at least double the face value of the average ticket price because certain markets(especially the Canadian ones) throw off the average because the after market prices can easily be over 2-3X the face value for a regular season game and even more for playoffs. Meanwhile the season ticket holder is only actually paying 2/3 of the face value to the league.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

To be honest I don’t think the average resale price is a good example and actually may make a better argument for why the figures are much lower than you are trying to argue. Aftermarket ticket prices are likely at least double the face value of the average ticket price because certain markets(especially the Canadian ones) throw off the average because the after market prices can easily be over 2-3X the face value for a regular season game and even more for playoffs. Meanwhile the season ticket holder is only actually paying 2/3 of the face value to the league.

Which is why I said the resale price would be higher (that doesn't go to the teams it's to ticket holders).

And then went on to solve for ticket price to make your 36% work outside of the $135 I found online.

The bottom line ... 36% doesn't work unless you think the average ticket price is $74 and beer and popcorn and a hat are all free for NHL ticket holders.

But I'll do it again.

17380 average attendance
31 teams
45 games

That's 24.2M tickets sold

36% of $5B is $1.8B

$1.8B/24.2M is $74 but that has to include concessions etc.

So given the price of beer these days you're now down to what $55/ticket

That's not what I'm seeing in the NHL.

I don't need to see raw data (which I have for attendance) when the math can't possibly get to 36%

[The Fisher Account]

Think we're gonna have another vaccine debacle like we did back when the Flames got their H1N1 before the general public?

[IamNotKenKing]

Originally Posted by The Fisher Account

Think we're gonna have another vaccine debacle like we did back when the Flames got their H1N1 before the general public?

The Flames did not get their H1N1 vaccinations before the general public. They sought, and received approval for, through AHS, a private implementation, at the same time as the public implementation.
After the private implementation, AHS amended the order of priority for provision of the vaccine.

After the team doctors consulted with AHS officials on the "potential commotion and intrusion" that sending the team to one of the public mass vaccination clinics would cause, most players got their shots on Friday at a medical clinic "under the direction of Alberta Health Services," according to a statement released by the Flames.

...

"We accept responsibility. We apologize," said Roman Cooney, an AHS spokesman in Calgary.

I understand there were changes to the system as a result of the following inquiry.

[BagoPucks]

I honestly wish we have hockey. If we dont well people will fill their time with something else. Loss is theirs if they dont play as time and eye balls will be spent regardless.

I dont really care who gets the money. But as a person who likes the sport, hope it comes back soon.

[sureLoss]

Irfaan Gaffar @irfgaffar
Nothing official, but sounds like some NHL teams are telling players to be ready for a January 3rd start date for training camp.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Which is why I said the resale price would be higher (that doesn't go to the teams it's to ticket holders).

And then went on to solve for ticket price to make your 36% work outside of the $135 I found online.

The bottom line ... 36% doesn't work unless you think the average ticket price is $74 and beer and popcorn and a hat are all free for NHL ticket holders.

But I'll do it again.

17380 average attendance
31 teams
45 games

That's 24.2M tickets sold

36% of $5B is $1.8B

$1.8B/24.2M is $74 but that has to include concessions etc.

So given the price of beer these days you're now down to what $55/ticket

That's not what I'm seeing in the NHL.

I think my last response already covered most of this.

I don't need to see raw data (which I have for attendance) when the math can't possibly get to 36%

I think if you saw the raw data you’d realize how your overly simplified formulas don’t paint an accurate picture. Whether it’s intentional or not your calculation ignores a number of factors that contribute to the inaccuracies arising from your math. I’m sure you know enough about the business side of the league to know that season ticket holders pay significantly less than face value and/or secondary market prices and that average attendance is not the same thing as average paid attendance. Both factors significantly reduce what the average attendee actually pays to the league to go see a game compared to the average secondary market ticket price.

I would not be surprised if the average ticket price paid to the league was less than half of what on average is paid for a secondary market ticket. Teams in high demand inflate that market but teams in low demand don’t really deflate it because most folks won’t buy season tickets to resell them at a loss.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

I think my last response already covered most of this.



I think if you saw the raw data you’d realize how your overly simplified formulas don’t paint an accurate picture. Whether it’s intentional or not your calculation ignores a number of factors that contribute to the inaccuracies arising from your math. I’m sure you know enough about the business side of the league to know that season ticket holders pay significantly less than face value and/or secondary market prices and that average attendance is not the same thing as average paid attendance. Both factors significantly reduce what the average attendee actually pays to the league to go see a game compared to the average secondary market ticket price.

I would not be surprised if the average ticket price paid to the league was less than half of what on average is paid for a secondary market ticket. Teams in high demand inflate that market but teams in low demand don’t really deflate it because most folks won’t buy season tickets to resell them at a loss.

So what are you challenging then?

If you're going to call it over simplified then where? What part?

17380 average attendance (From ESPN, easy to look up and confirm)
31 teams (Shouldn't get an argument on that one)
45 games (41 league games + 1 preseason + 3 playoff games on average)

That's 24.2M tickets sold (top three numbers multiplied together)

36% of $5B is $1.8B (Your 36%, and the well reported $5B in total revenue)

$1.8B/24.2M is $74 but that has to include concessions etc. (Math is math)

Unless you've had a problem with anything above now it's down to $74. You're happy thinking the average NHL fan pays $74 for a ticket, and concessions?

We all know that's impossible. Maybe let it go?

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Bingo

So what are you challenging then?

If you're going to call it over simplified then where? What part?

17380 average attendance (From ESPN, easy to look up and confirm)
31 teams (Shouldn't get an argument on that one)
45 games (41 league games + 1 preseason + 3 playoff games on average)

That's 24.2M tickets sold (top three numbers multiplied together)

36% of $5B is $1.8B (Your 36%, and the well reported $5B in total revenue)

$1.8B/24.2M is $74 but that has to include concessions etc. (Math is math)

Unless you've had a problem with anything above now it's down to $74. You're happy thinking the average NHL fan pays $74 for a ticket, and concessions?

We all know that's impossible. Maybe let it go?

Last time i visited the dome even the fan zone tickets were $50. I had more than 2 beer so I definitely spent more than $74, and these were the cheapest seats possible..

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Bingo

So what are you challenging then?

If you're going to call it over simplified then where? What part?

I already explained this but you can start with your assumption that every ticket used is paid for. In Canada there typically isn’t as much, if any, need for teams to discount their tickets, but that isn’t the case in a number of American markets. There are a number of teams that have to give away tickets to attract more fans, and even more teams who offer significant discounts whether it be a percentage off the face value or BOGO type deals. The higher ticket prices in Canada also don’t bring up the average as much as they should because of the exchange rate which is another important factor.

17380 average attendance (From ESPN, easy to look up and confirm)
31 teams (Shouldn't get an argument on that one)
45 games (41 league games + 1 preseason + 3 playoff games on average)

That's 24.2M tickets sold (top three numbers multiplied together)

36% of $5B is $1.8B (Your 36%, and the well reported $5B in total revenue)

$1.8B/24.2M is $74 but that has to include concessions etc. (Math is math)

Unless you've had a problem with anything above now it's down to $74. You're happy thinking the average NHL fan pays $74 for a ticket, and concessions?

Let me ask you this, do you think every ticket used is paid for? If the answer is no, do you realize how much that can affect your calculations?

We all know that's impossible. Maybe let it go?

What you think and what you know are two different things. If you knew I was wrong you’d at least be able to provide me with some actual solid numbers instead of using the limited data available to build an argument based on your best guess of how that data can determine the answer you want instead of the answer you’re looking for. To be clear I’m not trying to say you not having more proof makes me right or you wrong, but a lot of the data you are providing isn’t making a very strong case that my numbers must be way off.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

I already explained this but you can start with your assumption that every ticket used is paid for. In Canada there typically isn’t as much, if any, need for teams to discount their tickets, but that isn’t the case in a number of American markets. There are a number of teams that have to give away tickets to attract more fans, and even more teams who offer significant discounts whether it be a percentage off the face value or BOGO type deals. The higher ticket prices in Canada also don’t bring up the average as much as they should because of the exchange rate which is another important factor.



Let me ask you this, do you think every ticket used is paid for? If the answer is no, do you realize how much that can affect your calculations?



What you think and what you know are two different things. If you knew I was wrong you’d at least be able to provide me with some actual solid numbers instead of using the limited data available to build an argument based on your best guess of how that data can determine the answer you want instead of the answer you’re looking for. To be clear I’m not trying to say you not having more proof makes me right or you wrong, but a lot of the data you are providing isn’t making a very strong case that my numbers must be way off.

By the same statistical token, wouldn't the $500+ face value tickets offset the freebies? What about corporate box revenue? I digress but I think you have both (rightly) ignored the exteriors of the bell curve here, but pointing out one of the sides requires pointing out the other.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Last time i visited the dome even the fan zone tickets were $50. I had more than 2 beer so I definitely spent more than $74, and these were the cheapest seats possible..

Anecdotes aside, do you know how much a season ticket holder would pay for those same seats?(which from the sounds of it were for a premium game on a weekend)

I can give you a hint, it’s less than half.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Bingo

So what are you challenging then?

If you're going to call it over simplified then where? What part?

17380 average attendance (From ESPN, easy to look up and confirm)
31 teams (Shouldn't get an argument on that one)
45 games (41 league games + 1 preseason + 3 playoff games on average)

That's 24.2M tickets sold (top three numbers multiplied together)

36% of $5B is $1.8B (Your 36%, and the well reported $5B in total revenue)

$1.8B/24.2M is $74 but that has to include concessions etc. (Math is math)

Unless you've had a problem with anything above now it's down to $74. You're happy thinking the average NHL fan pays $74 for a ticket, and concessions?

We all know that's impossible. Maybe let it go?

Of course Hockey Related revenue is net of Direct Costs required to create that revenue as per section 50.1(a) of the CBA so that number that is required to get to 1.8 Billion is higher than 74 dollars spent per patron.

Direct costs are any costs that are required to generate the revenue. 100 percent of concession workers for instance would have their wages netted against the revenue generated. As would ticket reps. Any contract workers who partially work on revenue generating activities can have the portion of time that they work on revenue generating activities netted out against the revenue as well.

One has to assume that the wages of individuals on 31 teams, working 45 games a year is significantly higher than 0 dollars. At the start of COVID, the Flames said that they had 250 part time workers affected and 1500 full time workers affected. If one assumes that half of those workers (800 for the sake of argument) work in revenue generating jobs and they make on average 20 bucks an hour and worked 5 hours on game nights that would be 3.6 million that the Flames could deduct from their HRR over 45 games. For 31 teams that would be rounded up 112 million dollars. Obviously the number would be higher because the ticket reps and other salaried individuals would make more than 4,500 dollars a year. I would suspect the number is closer to 500 million dollars that the NHL nets off their ticket revenue, which would mean the average amount spent would have to be significantly higher than 74 dollars to create 1.8 Billion in revenue.

Direct costs also include all the costs for the food, beverages, material for clothing items, any cost that leads to a revenue generating activity is written off from the HRR. Hard to calculate how much that would be, but there would be a cost to that as well.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

I already explained this but you can start with your assumption that every ticket used is paid for. In Canada there typically isn’t as much, if any, need for teams to discount their tickets, but that isn’t the case in a number of American markets. There are a number of teams that have to give away tickets to attract more fans, and even more teams who offer significant discounts whether it be a percentage off the face value or BOGO type deals. The higher ticket prices in Canada also don’t bring up the average as much as they should because of the exchange rate which is another important factor.



Let me ask you this, do you think every ticket used is paid for? If the answer is no, do you realize how much that can affect your calculations?



What you think and what you know are two different things. If you knew I was wrong you’d at least be able to provide me with some actual solid numbers instead of using the limited data available to build an argument based on your best guess of how that data can determine the answer you want instead of the answer you’re looking for. To be clear I’m not trying to say you not having more proof makes me right or you wrong, but a lot of the data you are providing isn’t making a very strong case that my numbers must be way off.

So now we have two sources saying $1.7M to $1.8M, and my running simple numbers and explaining them all the way ... and the only rebuttal is freebies?

How much impact do you think freebies would be?

Here's a table for you ...



In my opinion I had to run it down to between 25 and 30% of tickets given away for free to approach the numbers you are suggesting.

You've wanted fact from me ... do you have a link suggesting the league is approaching the giving away of 1 in 3 tickets?

[Patek23]

John Shannon tweeted the NHL will be privately purchasing vaccinations.