2019/2020 Trade Speculation and Rumors 2.0

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

There is not one single goalie they can realistically acquire this off season where you can guarantee they'll get any better goaltending than they did.

Goalies are voodoo.

They could pay Lehner his massive UFA payday (if he even makes it to free agency), weaken their team in other areas because of the massive cap hit he will have, and then get 0.910 goaltending.

Yeah, I really don’t buy this “goalies are voodoo”. Goalies are tough, but just because the Flames have been absolutely incompetent when it comes to filling the position doesn’t mean it’s unpredictable and impossible to scout. Our organization just happens to be incredibly bad at it.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

There is not one single goalie they can realistically acquire this off season where you can guarantee they'll get any better goaltending than they did.

Goalies are voodoo.

They could pay Lehner his massive UFA payday (if he even makes it to free agency), weaken their team in other areas because of the massive cap hit he will have, and then get 0.910 goaltending.

You can't guarantee anything in hockey or life for that matter...you can give yourself better odds though. One in every three shots went in the net in game 6 you can almost certainly beat that with a top guy. Also with a top guy all year you are likely if a far better playoff position

[SuperMatt18]

Here’s the thing with goaltending. You do need good goaltending to win a Stanley cup but there are very few goalies that are actually “top 10” goalies year after year, so it’s hard to define what getting a top 10 goalie means.

Last year the Blues got great goaltending with Binnington and won a cup, this year he was benched in the first round. Right now I’m watching a series where Michael Hutchinson came in and is on the verge of winning three straight elimination games. Goaltending never makes sense.

Honestly only a few guys fit the bill. Over the last three seasons only Rask, Vasilevskiy, Bishop, Hellebuyck are the guys that I’d say are consistently top 10 goalies, the other goalies have bounced around year to year from a performance perspective.

However the thing this offseason is that there are two goalies that look to be pushing into that group I mentioned that might be available: Kuemper and Lehner. So if the price is right maybe you look at trying to get one of those two guys.

But I don’t see it happening since I’d rather they not spend the farm on trading for Kuemper, and I don’t think Lehner is really going to want a high pressure Canadian market with his history.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

They can’t re-sign Couturier and Gaudreau in the same offseason without paying significant contract offload fees.

I know it sounds insane, but if they’re involved they’ll be moving Couturier. Or else they just aren’t involved in any Johnny deal. It doesn’t make sense.

That doesn't really matter. If they acquire Gaudreau and keep Couturier (and of course, most of their important pieces), then that means their BEST shot at winning the cup is in the next 2 seasons. If they win, I don't think they will care all that much. If they fail, well, at least they gave themselves the best chance, and they can then retool/offload to get under the cap again and continue going for it.


That's how I see the Flames right now. Gaudreau 2 more seasons, Tkachuk 2 more seasons, Monahan 3 more seasons, Giordano 2 more seasons.. That's the 'window'. Can the Flames widen it with some smart trading and/or potential contract re-signs? Absolutely... but right now is the best shot that the Flames have in winning a cup (which isn't looking good, but point stands).


You worry about contracts down the road. If you think your team is close, you do what you can to add to it and give yourselves the best shot at winning. It is incredibly difficult to be a dynasty in a cap world anyway.


That's where I think the Flames are personally. Either start selling and enter a rebuild in the next season or two, or add what you can (including coaching) and go for it. It is this consistently 'middling' results that will slowly erode asset value and the ability to turnaround a rebuild properly, IMO, without giving the team a legitimate chance to win.

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

One time in recent years, and twice in recent history.

Niemi and Binnington are the only two exceptions to having established high end goaltending, and both played lights out in front of very good teams.

I’d sooner aim to be part of the norm, rather that bargain bin shopping the trash that we have had for the better part of a decade.

But yeah, sure, I’ll take few years of prime Toews, Kane, Byfuglien, Seabrook, Keith, and Hossa.

...except we have literally no one at any of their levels either.

Quick and Crawford weren't very established before they won in 2012 and 2013

Same deal with Matt Murray in 2016 and 2017

[Moneyhands23]

Originally Posted by Nelson

This morning on 960, Friedman talked about the number of good goalies possibly on the market and said it’s the best market ever. I feel the Flames, whatever they do, must save $ and fix the goaltending this summer.

Yes, even if they only get a top tier 1b goalie signed to a 3 year contract. Need to develop talent and support it

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

This is why I'd be OK with swapping the two of them if Arizona wants to get out of that financial commitment.

But I sure as hell don't want to include anything of value in the deal. It's a money and cap saving transaction for them, a get younger on the blue line move for us.

At LD, we have:

Hanifin
Valimaki
Kylington
Mackey

adding OEL is not a 'get younger on the blueline' move, it is a 'take a terrible contract off another team's books' move.

Cap crushing for 7 years

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Quick and Crawford weren't very established before they won in 2012 and 2013

Same deal with Matt Murray in 2016 and 2017

Matt Murray was flanked by MAF in both of those years, and Murray was a highly touted young goalie.

Quick was actively establishing himself as an elite goalie, as was Crawford.

They weren’t some 33 year old goalie who can’t keep it together over a full season and falls apart in elimination games.

If we had a goalie the same quality as Crawford or Quick, it would have been Rittich this year truly establishing himself - instead he fell apart. Those are the differences between being a top goalie, and not.

The Blues (Binnington) and Chicago (Niemi’s year) are the exception to the rule that you need established high end goaltending or young elite goalies who are just breaking out to win the Cup.

Hell, to even consistently move beyond the first round you need high quality established goaltending. The Flames have cycled bottom tier goalies in and out of the line-up for 6 seasons. There’s no defending it, it’s just a failure.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by dino7c

You can't guarantee anything in hockey or life for that matter...you can give yourself better odds though. One in every three shots went in the net in game 6 you can almost certainly beat that with a top guy. Also with a top guy all year you are likely if a far better playoff position

The Panthers gave themselves better odds. That worked out great.

All I'm saying is I wouldn't take on some massive contract or spend any major assets trying to acquire a goalie who will very likely not give us any better performance than the tandem we just had, and could easily have again for probably less than $6 million AAV combined.

[Flash Walken]

At least the flames have stopped trading picks for goalies at this point.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Yeah, I really don’t buy this “goalies are voodoo”. Goalies are tough, but just because the Flames have been absolutely incompetent when it comes to filling the position doesn’t mean it’s unpredictable and impossible to scout. Our organization just happens to be incredibly bad at it.

Goalies are voodoo. You never know what you're going to get from pretty much any of them. A goalie can sink you or make you look unbeatable at any given time, it doesn't matter who it is.

Cam Talbot put up a 0.919 save % this year. He could come back next year and put up a sub 0.900 save %, but so could any goalie you go and spend assets to get, or dish out a massive contract to.

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Goalies are voodoo. You never know what you're going to get from pretty much any of them. A goalie can sink you or make you look unbeatable at any given time, it doesn't matter who it is.

Cam Talbot put up a 0.919 save % this year. He could come back next year and put up a sub 0.900 save %, but so could any goalie you go and spend assets to get, or dish out a massive contract to.

Yes, there are few very reliable goalies in the league.

Rask has been extremely consistent throughout his career. Bishop is consistent when healthy. Gibson had been reliable prior to this year. Lehner has put up good numbers practically every year. Andersen had been very consistent prior to this year.

The rest of the goalies in the league are far more erratic. Even guys like Price, Hellebuyck, Brobovsky, Rinne, and MAF have pretty noticeable up and down years.

[powderjunkie]

There’s usually a pretty stark difference between the top-10 goalie lists at the start and end of each year. Voodoo.

Holtby wasn’t the starter for playoff game 1 of the Caps cup run.

The Pens used both Murray and Fleury.

Hard to say if Crawford is underrated, but he was rarely mentioned in the elite tier with Lundqvist, Price, Bobrovsky


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[jg13]

If there’s any poking around OEL I seriously hope it’s just Treliving driving the price up for Edmonton. OEL is the exact type of player the Oilers think they need and would continue to handcuff their organization for years to come.

[868904]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

They can’t re-sign Couturier and Gaudreau in the same offseason without paying significant contract offload fees.

I know it sounds insane, but if they’re involved they’ll be moving Couturier. Or else they just aren’t involved in any Johnny deal. It doesn’t make sense.

If I’m the Flyers, I keep Couturier at all costs and try and move JVR or Voracek.

If that means giving the Flames more young assets in a Gaudreau trade, then so be it.

Gaudreau

For

JVR or Voracek plus Frost / Farabee plus Myers plus first rounder.

I think if you are the Flames and you can get three good young assets but you have to take on JVR or Voracek, you do it. Both veterans are still top 6 forwards with size which is what the Flames need.

Voracek is the better player but his contract is longer. JVR contract is shorter.

[Crown Royal]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Quick and Crawford weren't very established before they won in 2012 and 2013

Same deal with Matt Murray in 2016 and 2017

Cam Ward wasn't established when he won the Cup either

[Crown Royal]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

There’s usually a pretty stark difference between the top-10 goalie lists at the start and end of each year. Voodoo.

Holtby wasn’t the starter for playoff game 1 of the Caps cup run.

The Pens used both Murray and Fleury.

Hard to say if Crawford is underrated, but he was rarely mentioned in the elite tier with Lundqvist, Price, Bobrovsky


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It's not necessarily that goalies are voodoo, but more that the gap between average, good and great is not that much.

Look at the 2018-19 season as it was the last full season. The difference between Martin Jones .896 and Markstrom's .912 was just 10 goals over a full season and the two played fewer than 2 minutes difference in ice-time. Whether a goalie is good or not more often than not depends on their fit with the team and the number of quality chances against.

[ForeverFlameFan]

So, with more and more teams coming to an end, which ones are like the Flames, who need a massive change in direction?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Crown Royal

It's not necessarily that goalies are voodoo, but more that the gap between average, good and great is not that much.

Look at the 2018-19 season as it was the last full season. The difference between Martin Jones .896 and Markstrom's .912 was just 10 goals over a full season and the two played fewer than 2 minutes difference in ice-time. Whether a goalie is good or not more often than not depends on their fit with the team and the number of quality chances against.

And what goals are let in. Smith’s and often Hiller’s softies were just killer goals. I liked Talbot this year but he picked a bad game to be mediocre and Rittich picked the same game to suck badly.

[Nelson]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

The Panthers gave themselves better odds. That worked out great.

All I'm saying is I wouldn't take on some massive contract or spend any major assets trying to acquire a goalie who will very likely not give us any better performance than the tandem we just had, and could easily have again for probably less than $6 million AAV combined.

I agree with the massive contract part. I would not want the Flames to sign a goalie to a contract anywhere near what the Panthers gave Bobrovsky or the Habs gave Price. That would be a disaster. But I don’t think anyone is gonna offer Robin Lehner a contract like that in this environment. Friedman has consistently said it’s gonna be difficult for Lehner to get term.