Flames Garbage Day Quotes

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Calgary is one of the tougher markets to be a GM, it's not an excuse but we must acknowledge that.

Look at Stone and Kadri right now...he obviously evaluated they properly but geography got in the way.

It's definitely an excuse. IMO it's one of the easier Canadian markets to be GM compared to Vancouver, Edmonton (have had 6 GM's since Darryl Sutter was Flames GM), Ottawa, Toronto, and Montreal. Arguably the softest media in the all the Canadian cities that's not bought and paid for like Edmonton. Treliving has had five seasons where the team has stagnated from when he got here and outside of a fan poll here his seat is ice cold. His seat would even be hotter in a some US markets for that matter. It's one of the cushier jobs in the league IMO as if you simply make the playoffs annually or every 2nd year the owners are generally satisfied.

[bubbsy]

sure, treliving does get some level of 'pass' for trying to improve the flames top 6. However, that's not a complete 'get out of jail' card at all in my opinion.

It doesn't take rocket science to know what's broken with this roster and needed to be improved. The GM tried a trade, it fell thru. I'm sure that happens to all 31 GMs in the league. Still, there are GMs that eventually do get their deals done (maybe not plan a, maybe not plan b, etc). Instead, we saw treliving completely strike out now for 2 full years, where his biggest move to improve the roster is bringing in Lucic, and 2 x 7th defencemen.

If the UFA path is a no go (too expensive, post prime players, players don't want to sign in Calgary), and trade route is a no go (too expensive, NTC/NMC keep getting in the way), then maybe it's time the franchise realize that winning requires high end players, and the only way to get those players is to draft high end players.

As has been stated numerous times, in variety of threads, High end players that have all the attributes required to win in the regular season and in the playoffs (speed, size, heart, hockey sense, etc), especially from a forward/center perspective, are high 1st round picks. If we ain't signing them thru free agency, and can't trade for them, then the entire organizational philosophy has to change and realize that the flames just need to draft and develop.

Enough with the bulls*t retooling on the fly. This franchise is NOT the rangers, or other big markets of the league, where they can always depend on trades to bolster their line up (let's trade for Adam fox/Jacob trouba, they want to play here) and then pick up prime UFAs (panarin signed in his prime) all while picking #2 overall last year, and #1 this year mind you. Let's see some 'long game' strategic thinking out of flames management/ownership for a change. Rebuild the right way.

Let's not trade 1st round and 2nd round picks while the team still hasn't come out of the rebuild part of the team building cycle. Brad treliving has traded 8 first/second round picks in his 5 or so seasons here!!! Barzal would damn sure look great as our 1st line C. I'd damn sure have him over Hamilton or the lindholm/hanafin combo right now.

Alas, the sad reality is this. Flames are a small market team. Ownership aren't willing to play the long game, and deal with 3-5 hopeless seasons (with lowered ticket sales, etc) to, ideally, set up a decade of playoff/contending years. That's the reality, and likely why I very much doubt I'll ever see another flames cup finalist/winner in my lifetime again.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I guess it depends more on how you square expectations with reality, then.

Execution from both a player side and a management side is heavily reliant on luck. Not everything can just be willed to be. With players, it's bounces and other players. What's the puck doing, what's everyone else doing. You can play your game to 100% and nobody can ask more of you, but that doesn't mean you're going to lead the league in scoring or post 20 shutouts.

On the management side, it's players, agents, and other GMs. You can't will everything to happen. You can expect that Kadri might not waive, just as a player might expect another player might not pass, but you just put yourself in the right position and act accordingly. Treliving has proven he puts himself in the right position, at least more often than not. What's going on behind the scenes? We want all-star coaches, do any of them even want to come here? We want to trade Gaudreau for a bag of riches, does anyone want to offer that up? I think as fans, we're probably 80% ignorant of what it takes to build a team and how much it depends on everyone else and everything going right. You look at the trade proposals here, the pining for every 'name' coach, etc (I do it to) but most of it looks like NHL 20 stuff, not real life.

End of the day, though, you're right. Execution does matter. After years of failing to execute, you're going to find yourself out of a job (player or management). But recognizing the context, the effort, or the underlying numbers aren't "excuses." They're what gives you an accurate picture.

You do that for Bennett (a chronic under-producer, but you and I agree he has great underlying stats and benefits from the right situations which he hasn't had), so why not Treliving?

These aren't all the same though. Context definitely matters but you have to make sure you're not just looking for factors that support a pre-conceived analysis, because that's when when context becomes an excuse.

Effort definitely matters but in a different way. Do I want employees that give maximum effort but are incapable of getting it done? Or employees that are fully capable but give inconsistent effort. I respect the first group more but I can win with the second group.

[Calgary4LIfe]

One thing that I liked that he said was being careful of not making a trade for the sake of a trade, and capitulating under the pressure to do so - that it usually leads to making your team worse, not better.


How many GMs do you see that try and save themselves by making poor trades? I am sure that Treliving feels the heat, and because of that, I am eager to see the changes/cringing at what they may be. However, I am glad that he is very cognizant of not making the team worse.


6 years of wheel spinning is tough on everyone, however. There is no guarantee that your rebuild will be successful enough to win a cup, but IMO it is considered a failure if you don't at least build a contender. These team looked like it was going to be a contender, but that never transpired.


Now, I also think that coaching has been an obstacle for this team. I look at the roster, and I don't know if I see a contender - was the team that finished 2nd overall in the regular season the outlier? I think so, but I also do think that this is a talented squad.


I am ok with blowing it to smithereens and kick-starting a rebuild - I think with the new arena, the timeline can fit that, and with the Covid-19 economic fallout, I think it also would make financial sense for the owners to do it now.


However, I am also fully on-board with getting a reputable, experienced and proven coach to come in here and try to make the most of this team. I don't believe for a second that you can't win with Gaudreau and Monahan, and I do think this team is a lot better than their playoff record (or even just their record of actually making the playoffs!).



I am ok with one more season of this core - hopefully including Hall (I was against bringing him in, but I do think having another scoring line will provide the new coach with more options, and drive opposing teams nuts in coverage and line-matching) - as long as there is a new and experienced coach. If it fails - so be it.



It has been ages since Calgary has had this skilled of a team. When was the last time? The 80's? Arguably the late 2000's with Iginla, Tanguay, Huselius, Langkow, Jokinen, Bertuzzi, Bourque, Regher, Phaneuf (the good version!), Kiprusoff, Glencross, Sarich... Ok, well, the most talented team in 11 years, but then you have to go all the way back to the late 80's/early 90's.


So you get a team this good only once every decade it seems in Calgary, so I am willing to do whatever it takes this upcoming season to see if it is even worth continuing to massage the roster, or tear it down. I am ok with either, as long as you bring in a coach with an actual good CV. Please verify the CV, and do the appropriate reference checks!


If you do a rebuild, please have the patience this time around. I do think that this is more and more of a young man's league, and these prospects seem to be coming onto rosters with more of an impact than ever before, but don't get too excited and start making trades/signings thinking that you are close to being a contender. Take your time, keep adding talent through the draft, and when you have too much, make appropriate trades and signings to maximize the core, hopefully not having to add to the core.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

It's definitely an excuse. IMO it's one of the easier Canadian markets to be GM compared to Vancouver, Edmonton (have had 6 GM's since Darryl Sutter was Flames GM), Ottawa, Toronto, and Montreal. Arguably the softest media in the all the Canadian cities that's not bought and paid for like Edmonton. Treliving has had five seasons where the team has stagnated from when he got here and outside of a fan poll here his seat is ice cold. His seat would even be hotter in a some US markets for that matter. It's one of the cushier jobs in the league IMO as if you simply make the playoffs annually or every 2nd year the owners are generally satisfied.

There are two different things there though.

It might be an easier market from a media/ownership expecations perspective but that doesn't make it any easier to attract a player to come to Calgary instead of Las Vegas, Miami, or even Colorado.

So sure expecations are easier, but that doesn't make actually attracting talent and building a team any easier.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

There are two different things there though.

It might be an easier market from a media/ownership expecations perspective but that doesn't make it any easier to attract a player to come to Calgary instead of Las Vegas, Miami, or even Colorado.

So sure expecations are easier, but that doesn't make actually attracting talent and building a team any easier.

Relative to the other Canadian teams I think it's probably the easiest market to be a GM outside of Winnipeg (seems like a career gig regardless of that franchise spinning its wheels like the Flames).

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

There are two different things there though.

It might be an easier market from a media/ownership expecations perspective but that doesn't make it any easier to attract a player to come to Calgary instead of Las Vegas, Miami, or even Colorado.

So sure expecations are easier, but that doesn't make actually attracting talent and building a team any easier.

Which makes not prioritizing the draft double as stupid and incompetent of a direction.

Being a ####ty place no one wants to play isn't a mitigating factor, it's an exacerbating one to the idiotic organizational philosophy that has played out in Calgary for 25 years.

In fact, it should make building a team easier, because there's no upside in participating in Free Agency if you have to significantly overpay bad players just to get them to come.

Calgary IMO should be the easiest canadian market and one of the easiest in the league to field a successful team and the fact that the team hasn't done so is a massive black mark on the organization and a significant contributor to WHY no one will go there, be they coaches, players or competent managers.

[flambers]

Sure everyone is aware the Flames GM is an extremely active GM. That's a good thing.

Sure he had a deal in place for a player with a NTC, that's a risk and they knew it (my opinion).

I guess my reply, what was the backup plan? Obviously stay as is.

Flames performance was very average last season, and against the Stars the better team won.

Gm is paid to improve his club, personally I did not see it last off season. I hope it happens this off season.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

If Treliving goes through this off-season without making a significant change to the core, then he is a brave man indeed. If he does so, I will admire the fact that he is standing by his work. If it doesn't work out, it will cost him his job.


My thoughts on the core: I disagree with the assertion that it is not good enough to win. I just that, for the most part, they need to play a different style of game. They absolutely need to play a faster transition, and they need to be more aggressive on D. The skill on D is there. That's the changes that I would like to see.


I can live with this team coming back if they change coaching. I don't see the 'they don't care enough' or 'aren't willing to play hard enough' or 'aren't committed' angle that is becoming so popular. I see Johnny still getting too frustrated at times, and I see a rattled team overall that stops being able to make crisp passes and take a second or two longer to make a decision out there.


What I also think is that the Flames need help scoring - at least with this system. I do think a faster transition will create more goals for this group. If they want to play this way, then then can't rely on one scoring line - they will need 3 if not 4. Hall signing here will make it much more difficult to defend against. Does the other team put out their best checkers and defencemen against the Gaudreau line, or the Hall line? Don't forget the Tkachuk line, which is usually the checking line! Make sense?


As another poster stated, I don't know how you go about doing that and still filling in defence. However, here is where I think a better coach comes in as well - I seem to remember the '04 Flames not having really good and experienced defencemen outside of a couple. Everyone stepped up. There are teams in the playoffs today who don't have an expensive D-corps but are still playing hockey. Plus, the goalies will look like all-stars.


The reason everyone is pissed-off with this group is because it has failed to meet expectations (and in embarrassing fashion), but the expectations are there for a reason - this is a good, but under-performing group. I don't want to lay it all on Ward's feet, especially since he had to take over from Peters, but dammit if this team has some sort of fear of hiring competent coaching.


If they can bring an experienced and proven coach in, bring in Hall, and somehow balance this roster, I will be all in. Hopefully that includes Brodie in a way - I think he is the best transition defencemen on the team with his passing/ability to skate with the puck. That's a big ask, however, to include him and Hall.



Don't trust me, however. I am ok with a rebuild too.

I agree wholeheartedly with this, especially a quality coach. Probably the only way to make it work money wise is to say good bye to Giordano.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by flambers

Sure everyone is aware the Flames GM is an extremely active GM. That's a good thing.

Sure he had a deal in place for a player with a NTC, that's a risk and they knew it (my opinion).

I guess my reply, what was the backup plan? Obviously stay as is.

This is not at all obvious.

Gm is paid to improve his club, personally I did not see it last off season. I hope it happens this off season.

"Improvement" is never a linear and predictable trajectory. Sometimes it requires a step back to take two steps forward; sometimes three to take four. I think a GM's job performance is exceedingly difficult to quantify and evaluate in small bites over a single season or a single TD. It might take ten years to build a team, since there are all sorts of outside forces which affect all sorts of teams differently.



Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Relative to the other Canadian teams I think it's probably the easiest market to be a GM outside of Winnipeg (seems like a career gig regardless of that franchise spinning its wheels like the Flames).

Edmonton just went through 15 years of the media kissing their ass for tanking. How is it easier here than there?

Treliving has made the playoffs in 4 of 6 years at the helm, and lead the team to a division win all after taking over a team in year one of a rebuild where they got nothing of value in return for their former franchise players and top Dman.

Win the division for the first time in 13 years, make the playoffs 2 seasons in a row in over a decade. Time to fire that guy

[Freeway]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Calgary is one of the tougher markets to be a GM, it's not an excuse but we must acknowledge that.

Look at Stone and Kadri right now...he obviously evaluated they properly but geography got in the way.

Kadri thought if he blocked the trade to Calgary, he wouldn't get traded at all. He and his agent drastically mis-read the situation.


The day before the deadline the Flames had a deal set for Mark Stone, but Vegas came back the next morning and dangled Erik Brannstrom and the Flames wouldn't put Andersson or Valimaki in their deal.


Neither is a geography issue.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Edmonton just went through 15 years of the media kissing their ass for tanking. How is it easier here than there?

Treliving has made the playoffs in 4 of 6 years at the helm, and lead the team to a division win all after taking over a team in year one of a rebuild where they got nothing of value in return for their former franchise players and top Dman.

Win the division for the first time in 13 years, make the playoffs 2 seasons in a row in over a decade. Time to fire that guy

This is an incredible re-frame of this rebuild. These results are world beating for a team with a pathetic history of success. Win the division (once) and make the playoffs (only to have the exact same result we've seen for most of 30 years if you're old enough). Wow. How do we contain our excitement? Long may this reign of major successes continue.

[Robbob]

Yeah, Kadri came out after and said the blocking of the trade was more about wanting to stay in Toronto, nothing about not wanting to come to Calgary.

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by Igottago

This is an incredible re-frame of this rebuild. These results are world beating for a team with a pathetic history of success. Win the division (once) and make the playoffs (only to have the exact same result we've seen for most of 30 years if you're old enough). Wow. How do we contain our excitement? Long may this reign of major successes continue.

Agreed.

4 playoff trips in 6 years is highly misleading. They made it then missed each consecutive year under treliving's watch. They were out of the playoffs by point % (or in by the skin of their teeth, I can't remember) this year when the season was halted so made the playoffs thru the play in round.

The 'playoffs in 4 of 6 years' isn't a testament to the consistency brought in by this gm but rather that they are just consistent in being inconsistent!

[Enoch Root]

so 4 out of 6 playoffs

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

so 4 out of 6 playoffs

Can't wait for the banner ceremony.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Igottago

This is an incredible re-frame of this rebuild. These results are world beating for a team with a pathetic history of success. Win the division (once) and make the playoffs (only to have the exact same result we've seen for most of 30 years if you're old enough). Wow. How do we contain our excitement? Long may this reign of major successes continue.

I guess if you are of the belief this team is done and should be torn down then sure get a new GM. I think there are good pieces here and Treliving has done a better job in terms of drafting or trading than Feaster or Sutter before him.

I am in favor of retooling the roster and building a winner with this group and that is a reason I support keeping Treliving around.

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

so 4 out of 6 playoffs

Correct. But worth pointing out that it would be foolish to use this metric to justify that the gm has built a consistent playoff team in his tenure here.

One year in and one year out is not a 'consistent playoff' measure.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Igottago

Can't wait for the banner ceremony.

You probably missed the banner they did raise when they won the Pacific in 2019. That’s okay it was done discretely without a ceremony