2019/2020 Trade Speculation and Rumors 2.0

[DomeFoam]

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/t...ing-situation/

All speculation around Hall says that he wants to play for a winning team in a stable environment. Is Calgary either of those things?

Playing for your hometown team would be great in a sense, but I think he's tired of losing. Calgary's not winning anything anytime soon. I doubt he signs here. Would love a plate of crow though.

[djsFlames]

We have a playoff bennett, not a regular season bennett.

Acknowledge and respect what the guy is and what the guy isn't.

He's not going to elevate the same way for 82 and you have to slot him accordingly. You just keep him riding shotgun for when the post season rolls around. Let's not beat our head against rocks with replacing monahan nonsense.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

We have a playoff bennett, not a regular season bennett.

Exact same #### was said after last post-season. Yet we got an even worse Sam Bennett the next training camp. I suggest you learn from history, and how did you put it, "acknowledge and respect what the guy is and what the guy isn't." Ignore the Kris Kontos Effect and look at the guy's long-term performance.

He's not going to elevate the same way for 82 and you have to slot him accordingly. You just keep him riding shotgun for when the post season rolls around. Let's not beat our head against rocks with replacing monahan nonsense.

Ah, gotcha. Let one guy slide for 82 because he runs around in for 5-7 games in the post-season, but crucify one of the guys who actually contributes the whole season, getting the team to the post-season, and then produces the same in the the post-season. I will never understand what goes on in people minds when it comes to sport. Rational thinking goes completely out the window.

[Heavy Jack]

double post

[really?]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

We have a playoff bennett, not a regular season bennett.

Acknowledge and respect what the guy is and what the guy isn't.

He's not going to elevate the same way for 82 and you have to slot him accordingly. You just keep him riding shotgun for when the post season rolls around. Let's not beat our head against rocks with replacing monahan nonsense.

If a guy can produce the way Bennett does at a point in the season where the competition is heightened, is it really a given it doesn't translate to the regular season? How did Ryan do in the playoffs when he was deployed in a fashion similar to Bennett in the regular season?

Clearly it is difficult to get a read on Sam Bennett, but any statistical analysis has to be tempered by his assignments. I don't know that he could sustain on line one, but I wouldn't be willing to say it isn't a possibilty because he has talent, has shown glimpses and has never been given a prolonged opportunity. Maybe past coaches were right, and he does not have the skillset for a top six role, but understand that the guys who made those decisions are no longer in Calgary for a failure to produce.

To me Bennett is a player who thrives in a system pushing the play and pressuring the opposition, while the Flames have catered to a crew preferring possession and relying upon a conservative defensive structure. This doesn't work for a player like Sam Bennett and if the Flames continue with this philosophy it may be best for Bennett to move on, but with every passing season it becomes more apparent that the league has moved in a different direction and that direction has rendered the Flames obsolete.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by DomeFoam

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/t...ing-situation/

All speculation around Hall says that he wants to play for a winning team in a stable environment. Is Calgary either of those things?

Playing for your hometown team would be great in a sense, but I think he's tired of losing. Calgary's not winning anything anytime soon. I doubt he signs here. Would love a plate of crow though.

As a Free Agent it would be nice to have a leverage offer from a team like the Flames to get your desired location to pony up to dollars they otherwise might not be willing to.

[Enoch Root]

Most of these arguments against acquiring Hall are mental gymnastics, in an attempt to justify a desired view of a rebuild. However, a rebuild is almost certainly not on the table for this team (I think it is very safe to assume that). That being the case, trading for Hall's rights makes a lot of sense.

1) the point of acquiring the rights to negotiate early is precisely to get him a little cheaper and save some cap room. If you wait until free agency, you don't get the opportunity to present your plan, you just participate in a bidding war. But with time to negotiate, you present your vision, you explain what the team is planning to do with the roster, how and why he fits, and you explain why a more team-favourable deal makes sense (i.e. to help build a winner). It's essentially the same as a team re-signing their own UFA prior to them testing the market - they almost invariably sign for less than they would likely sign for on July 1st.

2) Getting it done before the draft and before free agency gives them WAY more flexibility. They would then enter the off-season with that asset in place, allowing them to take the next steps in their plan. Trying to argue that it makes Gaudreau less valuable is pretty silly (unless he had an NTC that limited the number of teams). You would still have 2 drafts, 2 free agency seasons, and two trade deadlines with which to make a deal. And Gaudreau is a huge asset at his cap hit.

3) If you don't make another trade before next season, no problem: you move Tkachuk to the right side where he is very comfortable, and you don't re-sign Brodie. The D is weaker, but the top 6 is really good. And if that is the worst case scenario, it gives you the opportunity to better assess your young defensemen.

4) Giving up a pick sucks (only happens if he signs of course), but we would then have him on the roster, allowing us to move other assets and (presumably) improve our pick/prospect allotment.

Adding a major asset without giving up assets does not put you in a weaker position, it puts you in a stronger position. The only downside is cap room, but you have (more) options on that front.

Really, the only argument against it is that you want a full rebuild. And while I would personally welcome that, I think it is a non-starter for this franchise.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

As a Free Agent it would be nice to have a leverage offer from a team like the Flames to get your desired location to pony up to dollars they otherwise might not be willing to.

The leverage offer from the Flames evaporates when free agency starts.

[Enoch Root]

Regarding Gaudreau's value, signing Hall increases Gaudreau's value because it takes Hall off the market. If Hall is available in free agency, no deal is available for Gaudreau until Hall is signed. And signing Hall eliminates that team as a potential trading partner for Gaudreau.

[bigrangy]

Monahan
19

Cozens
8
38


Tkachuk

3 (Byfield)
Jaros/Lajoie

Gio@50%

Pick used on Askarov
Youngish NHL RD, not necessarily a good one, just a serviceable guy, someone like Fedun/Stecher/Pysyk/Montour/Poolman

Sign Hall

Sign Brodie

Pick up Wennberg for a pick

Hall-Backlund-Mangiapane
Gaudreau-Wennberg-Lindholm
Dube-Bennett-Byfield
Rieder-Ryan-Cozens
Janko, Gawdin/Phillips/Tuulola

Hanifin-Andersson
Valimaki-Brodie
Kylington-guy acquired in Gio trade
Jaros/Lajoie/Mackey

Goalies tbd

I think that works for cap, just depends what you do for goalies.

Bit of a huge teardown, but Monahan is not the answer at 1C, and I don’t see anyone trading an actual 1C for him, so pick up a couple lotto tickets and backfill with Wennberg.

Tkachuk is awesome, and a really good player, but a #1C is a lot more necessary than 3 #1 LWs, and Tkachuk is the only one who can get you a potential #1C in Byfield. Might be too much of praying for a lotto ticket to work out but Byfield should be a great NHLer. Would be pretty classic Flames for him to bust in this scenario though.

Gio is still a horse and I want him to retire a Flames but it’s time for a new leadership dynamic. Getting just Askarov is a risky risky play but I doubt a future #1G will present itself to the team otherwise.

Draft Rossi at 8, a d-man at 38 and move forward with a Byfield/Cozens/Dubé/Bennett/Mangiapane/Rossi/Hall/Lindholm/Valimaki/Andersson/Hanifin core assuming Gaudreau is actually leaving when his contract is up. Backlund/Lucic/Brodie as the vets.


Probably over complicating things, and there’s no way three core pieces get moved this summer, but getting 3 cracks at a #1C (3oa, 8oa, maybe Cozens) would definitely change the makeup of the team.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by IrishSpring2013

Understandably everyone is frustrated with Gaudreau, add in contact issues and moving him is a no brainer.. But that is highway robbery for New Jersey.

Despite issues Gaudreau is still a top line winger, and those don't move for a single 1st round pick outside the top five. If the Devils add their Vancouver 1st or the higher Coyotes first you have a better deal.

I can’t see it as robbery for them at all. Seems pretty fair. Johnny has shown he can’t score when you lean on him in the playoffs. Maybe if you surround him with the right line mates he’d be able to, but that player that you need to score in the playoffs just isn’t there. When you give up a top ten first you’re generally looking for an impactful player. This year particularly highlighted the difference between a playoff and regular season player.

[Enoch Root]

An argument against signing Hall is the expansion draft, because adding him means you have 9 forwards to protect (TH, JG, SM, EL, MT, MB, AM, SB, DD)

Obviously, you would want to trade one of the forwards out, but if you don't, you would have to expose 2 of those players. So that puts some pressure on getting trades done.

It isn't a huge deal - you're going to have to expose one of them anyway, and you only lose one. But if Bennett, Mangiapane and Dube all progress, then you are going to lose a pretty good player.

However, if they do, then you have even more trade chips.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by AC

I think a team can only use that motivation to move Gaudreau against Calgary if they're the only possible destination (due to a NMC for example). If there are multiple teams interested in Gaudreau, then I think that leverage disappears as a bidding war ramps up.

I don't think that's true, because in a flat cap situation, I don't know how many truly motivated suitors there will be. Not that Gaudreau isn't an attractive asset to add, but because there are a bunch of deals that were signed last year expecting a modest cap increase that will come into effect without that increase. It is difficult to do a deal with a team for that amount of cap hit that is simultaneously interested in adding a short term cap hit the size of Gaudreaus.

Most of the teams that will be interested in Gaudreau, perhaps the teams with the MOST interest, are likely to have the least amount of cap space. Boston, Pittsburgh, Dallas, St. Louis, Chicago.

We're all assuming New Jersey has a lot of interest in gaudreau but I'm not convinced that they do considering how much the organization appears to be working off of a draft accumulation model. Adding Gaudreau looks like it would really hurt that accumulation aspect unless it's for something like flipping Subban.

so if the organization has decided it's time to move on from Johnny Hockey, I think the most prudent move is to deal him prior to signing/trading for Hall, even if the sign/trade of Hall doesn't end up materializing, because at least then you can be quick to the free agent market to try and seize upon a free agent that puts you in the same cap area you were in before dealing Gaudreau.

If all the indications are actually that Hall is not coming to Calgary then I would actually just keep Gaudreau and wait for the right deal to materialize over the next 18 months of the life of his contract and pull the trigger whenever those parameters are met, even if it costs you post season results. You're treading water anyway, why not get the best deal for him?

There's no rush to move Gaudreau right now so why create one by taking on a contract that means you have to push Gaudreau out the door?

Let's use the Leafs situation from last summer as an example because I don't think i'm doing a great job of explaining this.

There were loads of vultures circling that team knowing the cap crunch situation they were in might end up offering up some tasty treats. Calgary certainly tried to take advantage with the proposed Brodie/Kadri swap.

Kadri was, I think we can all agree, exactly what Calgary needed on multiple fronts: skill, grit, position, and most importantly cap hit and term.

Kadri was a player the Flames should have been all in on, right?

Except I don't think they were. Kadri for Brodie+Janko is a relatively pedestrian return for Toronto. Brodie is definitely valuable, but compared to what Colorado gave up, I don't think Calgary had a competitive deal on paper, and I don't think, despite their desire for Kadri, that they would've been interested in offering any more than what they were, because the onus at the time was on Toronto to clear/repurpose the capspace.

There should have been a lot of teams lining up to bid on Kadri, right? But Calgary's rather pedestrian deal turned out to be the best offer. Personally, I think that's because the rest of the league wanted Dubas to sweat and meet their lowball threshold.

Just like how no one was lining up to take Patrick Marleau either, every team in the league basically waited toronto out on that one until carolina took a 1st round pick for him which is a pretty good return I think. For the leafs to eventually deal that pick to an eastern team when they had been negotiating with a few teams in the west for a few weeks about it suggests to me the cost to send Marleau to LA was a lot more expensive than the cost to send him to Carolina.

Because why do Toronto a favour? That's the situation you get in when you're at or over the cap and the league knows you're trying to get under it by moving a player no longer in your plans. It helps that gaudreau is a very attractive asset, but the cap is still finite.

I think Toronto really liked Brodie and thought there would be the opportunity to extend him at a reasonable rate, and I also think it was the best deal on the table for Kadri at the time.

If the belief league wide is that Gaudreau essentially wants out and that the Flames are also inclined to trade him, if they sign Hall before they do, I think there is legitimate potential that teams are not offering their best offers for Gaudreau, especially given the flat cap. Adding hall before dealing Gaudreau I think evaporates the pool of suitors somewhat from a Calgary perspective because a lot of teams will be looking to send salary back in that kind of trade that the Flames are simply not able to do even if they wanted to.

The onus will be on the Flames to go into a season with 7 actual warm bodies on defense and not 3 guys making 25% of the cap on the wing, just like it was on Toronto to not go into the season with 5 guys making 40 or 50% of the cap.

[Ped]

The deal for Kadri might look low now, but you also have to remember, this was a player with serious warts. He had been disciplined by the team, I believe on more than one occasion, and he had been suspended in two straight playoffs for absolutely boneheaded plays.


The Leafs picked Kadri to move at least partly because of those things. They could have moved a more expensive player who didn't have those issues and gotten more, I think.

[Groot]

My ideal offseason, don't be too harsh lol

Hire Gallant
Sign Hall - 7.75 x 7
Sign Lehner - 6.75 x 6
Sign Brodie - 5.25 x 6
Re-sign Mangiapane - 2.0 x 2
Re-sign Gustafsson - 1.2 x 3
Re-sign Reider - 700k x 2
Re-sign Kylington 730k x 1
Trade Monahan + Gaudreau + 2021 1st Round Pick for Barkov
Promote 2 forwards internally for 4th line RW/13th FW

Hall (7.75) - Barkov (5.9) - Lindholm (4.85)
Tkachuk (7.0) - Backlund (5.35) - Mangiapane (2.0)
Lucic (5.25) - Bennett (2.55) - Dube (0.778)
Reider (0.700) - Ryan (3.13) - ?? (0.800)
?? (0.800)

Giordano (6.75) - Andersson (4.55)
Hanifin (4.95) - Brodie (5.25)
Valimaki (0.890) - Gustafsson (1.2)
Kylington (0.73)

Lehner (6.75)
Rittich (2.75)

Total Cap Hit - $80.678
Remaining - $822k

[Enoch Root]

If the Flames were interested in Kadri, and he went at a discount as you suggest, why wouldn't the Flames up their offer to get a guy they wanted at a good deal? It doesn't add up.

A more reasonable explanation is that Toronto got a fair return for Kadri.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Most of these arguments against acquiring Hall are mental gymnastics, in an attempt to justify a desired view of a rebuild. However, a rebuild is almost certainly not on the table for this team (I think it is very safe to assume that). That being the case, trading for Hall's rights makes a lot of sense.

1) the point of acquiring the rights to negotiate early is precisely to get him a little cheaper and save some cap room. If you wait until free agency, you don't get the opportunity to present your plan, you just participate in a bidding war. But with time to negotiate, you present your vision, you explain what the team is planning to do with the roster, how and why he fits, and you explain why a more team-favourable deal makes sense (i.e. to help build a winner). It's essentially the same as a team re-signing their own UFA prior to them testing the market - they almost invariably sign for less than they would likely sign for on July 1st.

2) Getting it done before the draft and before free agency gives them WAY more flexibility. They would then enter the off-season with that asset in place, allowing them to take the next steps in their plan. Trying to argue that it makes Gaudreau less valuable is pretty silly (unless he had an NTC that limited the number of teams). You would still have 2 drafts, 2 free agency seasons, and two trade deadlines with which to make a deal. And Gaudreau is a huge asset at his cap hit.

3) If you don't make another trade before next season, no problem: you move Tkachuk to the right side where he is very comfortable, and you don't re-sign Brodie. The D is weaker, but the top 6 is really good. And if that is the worst case scenario, it gives you the opportunity to better assess your young defensemen.

4) Giving up a pick sucks (only happens if he signs of course), but we would then have him on the roster, allowing us to move other assets and (presumably) improve our pick/prospect allotment.

Adding a major asset without giving up assets does not put you in a weaker position, it puts you in a stronger position. The only downside is cap room, but you have (more) options on that front.

Really, the only argument against it is that you want a full rebuild. And while I would personally welcome that, I think it is a non-starter for this franchise.

Have you looked at the Flames cap situation for next season?

Can you explain to me how the Flames can add an 8 million dollar winger and still ice a full lineup?

The Flames have 17 million in Cap space to sign 11 players. If they add Hall at 8 million that means they have 9 million to sign 10 players.

How do the Flames simultaneously add Taylor Hall and keep Gaudreau and still sign 10 necessary players for more than league minimum?

It's lot more difficult than saying "oh just don't sign brodie".

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Have you looked at the Flames cap situation for next season?

Can you explain to me how the Flames can add an 8 million dollar winger and still ice a full lineup?

The Flames have 17 million in Cap space to sign 11 players. If they add Hall at 8 million that means they have 9 million to sign 10 players.

How do the Flames simultaneously add Taylor Hall and keep Gaudreau and still sign 10 necessary players for more than league minimum?

It's lot more difficult than saying "oh just don't sign brodie".

I have, and there are a lot of ways that it could play out, so I am not going to bother creating examples.

Obviously, Plan A, if they were to sign Hall, would be to trade one of their other forwards.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

If the Flames were interested in Kadri, and he went at a discount as you suggest, why wouldn't the Flames up their offer to get a guy they wanted at a good deal? It doesn't add up.

A more reasonable explanation is that Toronto got a fair return for Kadri.

Because upping their offer wouldn't have mattered because they had a done deal and the player reportedly would not waive his trade clause.

The Flames didn't cheap out on Kadri, he just wouldn't come here, and I don't know if Brodie would have waived either if it had come to that.

[Enoch Root]

If you sign Hall and trade Gaudreau, you replace Gaudreau for a marginally higher cap hit, plus get the return for Gaudreau.

It is really difficult to make a case that it wouldn't improve the team.