2019/2020 Trade Speculation and Rumors 2.0

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by AC

Yep, signing Hall means we can explore Gaudreau trades from a position of strength.

I don't agree.

Signing hall before dealing Gaudreau means you have 3 left wingers on the team making a combined 20-23 million while still needing at least 4 Defenders and the rest of the roster to fill out.

That's a position of weakness. 30 other NHL teams will correctly identify that the Flames aren't in a position to turn down lowball offers for Gaudreau because he needs to be moved.

At that point, you can just sit on your offer until mid january when Frolik goes for a mid pick that may not have been a departure from what was on the table in June or July.

Adding hall before subtracting Gaudreau actually puts more pressure on the Flames to consummate a trade, not less.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I don't agree.

Signing hall before dealing Gaudreau means you have 3 left wingers on the team making a combined 20-23 million while still needing at least 4 Defenders and the rest of the roster to fill out.

That's a position of weakness. 30 other NHL teams will correctly identify that the Flames aren't in a position to turn down lowball offers for Gaudreau because he needs to be moved.

At that point, you can just sit on your offer until mid january when Frolik goes for a mid pick that may not have been a departure from what was on the table in June or July.

Adding hall before subtracting Gaudreau actually puts more pressure on the Flames to consummate a trade, not less.

Tkachuk is an RW. He's played there for almost an entire season now.

Gaudreau + Hall is a dynamic 1-2 punch.

Having MORE top end talent is never a weakness. If you're going down any other path, you're over thinking it and reaching. There are ways this team can fit both Johnny and Taylor on the roster - and it honestly might not be the worst case scenario. You then be patient with the Gaudreau return - the way Colorado was with Duchene. Then finally move Johnny towards the deadline. It may work out quite nicely, but the point remains - the more top end talent, the better.

[868904]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I'm glad we agree it's an undesirable market, that's usually a major obstacle on this board in discussions about team building.

If your team is located in a market no one wants to go in then you shouldn't be playing the free agent game at all. Free agents willing to come to Calgary should probably be seen with a red flag based on recent history.

Rather than spend picks to get early access to a free agent who doesn't really want to be there, just use the picks to draft players who have no choice where they play for 8 years post draft.

The solution to Calgary's problem is staring them in the face. It's the ONLY method they've never actually tried since the first time they did it resulted in them winning the ####ing cup.

Trading picks to get early access to hall in order to pay him 8+ million to stay in order to try to win with a 37 year old Giordano reeks.

If that's the plan the Flames might not get out from under the Treliving blunders for a decade. Probably the worst thing about Treliving's tenure to start with the club was the residual bad decisions still that still plagued the organization like Wideman.

I get the anxiety of paying in the free agent market.

Paying $4 plus million for Brouwer, stupid.

Paying Neal $6 million, stupid.

But Hall is a legitimate first liner. The better way to look at it is would you rather pay Hall $8 million or extend Johnny for $8 million.

The other way to look at it is that signing Hall allows the team to trade Johnny for young assets.

If they don’t sign Hall, I think the Johnny trade will be a hockey trade probably for an under performing asset with flaws like Johnny.

If they can sign Hall, I bet the Johnny trade is for futures at the draft, a top ten pick hopefully or even multiple picks (mid first and bunch of seconds).

The owners won’t let management tear it down and rebuild. They are already hurting this year with lost ticket revenue, they will probably hurt next year too with attendance restrictions. The owners will want The interest level high and no one is going to buy tickets to watch a rebuilding team. The team also needs to maintain cash flows with a big arena project on the horizon.

Also, a rebuild that goes badly probably means Tkachuk will want out after his current contract, you could be rebuilding for a decade.

Singing Hall and trading Johnny for futures is the best play out there. It’s the best of both worlds.

[The Original FFIV]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Some of them do. Or Adam Fox.

In the last 5 drafts, Flames have drafted in the third round twice so yeah, I imagine the pick is in play.

This is the reason why we shouldn’t be trading any picks for negotiation rights. That’s a trade you do if your Prospect cupboard is full and there’s no Discernible long term needs. We have been stripped clean of legit prospects due to all the trading without replacing draft picks.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I don't agree.

Signing hall before dealing Gaudreau means you have 3 left wingers on the team making a combined 20-23 million while still needing at least 4 Defenders and the rest of the roster to fill out.

That's a position of weakness. 30 other NHL teams will correctly identify that the Flames aren't in a position to turn down lowball offers for Gaudreau because he needs to be moved.

At that point, you can just sit on your offer until mid january when Frolik goes for a mid pick that may not have been a departure from what was on the table in June or July.

Adding hall before subtracting Gaudreau actually puts more pressure on the Flames to consummate a trade, not less.

Ah, so a team that wants one of the Flames left wingers is going to just lowball them and every other team that wants one of the Flames left wingers is just going to sit back and let that low ball offer be the only offer right?

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I don't agree.

Signing hall before dealing Gaudreau means you have 3 left wingers on the team making a combined 20-23 million while still needing at least 4 Defenders and the rest of the roster to fill out.

That's a position of weakness. 30 other NHL teams will correctly identify that the Flames aren't in a position to turn down lowball offers for Gaudreau because he needs to be moved.

At that point, you can just sit on your offer until mid january when Frolik goes for a mid pick that may not have been a departure from what was on the table in June or July.

Adding hall before subtracting Gaudreau actually puts more pressure on the Flames to consummate a trade, not less.

How does that work from the other end? There would be several teams interested, if you don’t want to compete with your offer then you are out of the picture.

[GS Skier]

I don't do the armchair GM thing very often if at all. Mainly because like Eklund, I'm always wrong anyway. My attitude is Burkes attitude. Stop blaming Coaches and Management.

I do know some things that cannot be overlooked ever.

1. Its a flat cap and as such young cheap RFAs are now more important to ALL teams than ever.

2. No one can predict a back room actual "Hockey Trade' cap for cap equal. No one and Treliving plays his cards very close to the vest.

3. From free agency to draft to camp is a weird short window. I think many GMs will hold'em rather risk making a mistake.

4. The Flames have 10 guys working all day all the time and they have better scouting reports than we could ever dream off. And they along with all other organizations get it wrong all the time.

5. 90% of the league ALSO wants to make a trade to gain cap space. (All you lets sign Hall guys take note)

Flames
13 signed
3 Playing RFAs Magniapnae, jankowski and Kjillington
4 UFAs on the blueline that played in the playoffs
$16,910,000 available to sign at least 9 players and with a new $750,000 league minimum
9 x $750,000 = $6,750,000

Its all open for debate however lets assume they let Hamonic walk and sign with the Jets which would be great for him and his family. Thats 3.6 mil we don't have to spend.
They could let Janko walk even as an RFA

I believe they will resign Brodie and will resign Talbot but at modest? raises

Magiapane needs a raise, Kjillington doesn't.

We have $13,160,000 to sign those 4 guys and leave $3,750,000 to sign 5 guys at league minimum.

I'm all for say keep a Gustafson or Frobort or whatever BUT look at that cap space and then sober up a bit.

You want the Flames to "go get some guy?" Then you have to know this stuff and use cap Friendly and review your target because theres an awe-full lot of back and forth here on a few good notions. But from what I browse thru here there's a lot of suggestions that should and could easily be given some sober 2nd thought.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I agree with posts above that the Flames view this as a contingency, can't trade Gaudreau without a replacement already secured.

This was the same reasoning for why brouwer was bought out in August vs. June buyout window; Treliving had to make sure he had Neal signed.

When you actually consider that as a course of action, it illustrates how poor of a plan it really is.

What's the plan if it doesn't come to fruition, what if Hall doesn't sign in Calgary?

Part of being a GM is taking risk.

[ComixZone]

I'm still looking at Florida.

Mandate is to reportedly cut salaries, and while Barkov is undoubtedly unavailable...what about Aaron Ekblad?

Noah Hanifin + 1st in 2020 for Aaron Ekblad. Cuts their cap by 2.55M, but also looking at Ekblad's salary structure he is owed $6M, $9M, $6M, $7M, $7M compared to Hanifin's flat $4.95M. I’d say while Ekblad is better, he’s not that much better and you could argue he’s overpaid - but he’d mark some of the culture change for the Flames.

Couple that with:

Johnny Gaudreau + David Rittich for New Jersey's 7th Overall pick. Gives New Jersey their top line winger as well as a goalie to be in a tandem with Blackwood.

[868904]

Originally Posted by GS Skier

I don't do the armchair GM thing very often if at all. Mainly because like Eklund, I'm always wrong anyway. My attitude is Burkes attitude. Stop blaming Coaches and Management.

I do know some things that cannot be overlooked ever.

1. Its a flat cap and as such young cheap RFAs are now more important to ALL teams than ever.

2. No one can predict a back room actual "Hockey Trade' cap for cap equal. No one and Treliving plays his cards very close to the vest.

3. From free agency to draft to camp is a weird short window. I think many GMs will hold'em rather risk making a mistake.

4. The Flames have 10 guys working all day all the time and they have better scouting reports than we could ever dream off. And they along with all other organizations get it wrong all the time.

5. 90% of the league ALSO wants to make a trade to gain cap space. (All you lets sign Hall guys take note)

Flames
13 signed
3 Playing RFAs Magniapnae, jankowski and Kjillington
4 UFAs on the blueline that played in the playoffs
$16,910,000 available to sign at least 22 players and with a new $750,000 league minimum to sign 9 players
9 x $750,000 = $6,750,000

Its all open for debate however lets assume they let Hamonic walk and sign with the Jets which would be great for him and his family. Thats 3.6 mil more
They could let Janko walk even as an RFA

I believe they will resign Brodie and will resign Talbot but at modest? raises

Magiapane needs a raise, Kjillington doesn't.

We have $13,160,000 to sign those 4 guys and leave $3,750,000 to sign 5 guys at league minimum.

I'm all for say keep a Gustafson or Frobort or whatever BUT look at that cap space and then sober up a bit.

You want the Flames to "go get some guy?" Then you have to know this stuff and use cap Friendly and review your target because theres an awe-full lot of back and forth here on a few good notions. But from what I browse thru here there's a lot of suggestions that should and could easily be given some sober 2nd thought.

I don’t think you necessarily spend so much on defense. We’ve had the top end defense core for years and it’s gotten us no where. We have plenty of young defensemen on entry level deals, it wouldn’t be the worst thing to play them, there are stil 3 veterans signed here and they can always go bargain shopping for another veteran 7th to help tutor and provide leadership (Engelland).

I assume Jankowski is gone and hopefully they can get a pick of some kind. I think some teams will gamble on him.

I like Mangiapane but if he asks for too much and it comes down to him vs having Hall and capspace, I trade him. Love his compete but he is still an undersized winger and they all struggle in the playoffs. Flames might get a good return for him.

You can also move Ryan, he’s a useful player with a big cap hit but he’s also UFA after this season, better to get something for an expiring asset along with cap space. And again, another undersized forward.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

How does that work from the other end? There would be several teams interested, if you don’t want to compete with your offer then you are out of the picture.

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Ah, so a team that wants one of the Flames left wingers is going to just lowball them and every other team that wants one of the Flames left wingers is just going to sit back and let that low ball offer be the only offer right?

Let's use the msot recent hall rumours as an example.

Arizona offered a different quantity of assets than what the Flames offered New Jersey.

let's assume the two offers are on their face identical in terms of value.

New Jersey picked the offer that worked better for them.

Why didn't the flames then just increase the value of their offer? Even if they were willing to, would the combination of assets work for New Jersey or would they have taken a lesser total asset package of assets they wanted vs. a more valuable asset package of things they didn't necessarily want.

If the Flames go shopping Gaudreau for a top centre prospect and the only deals out there are for picks, the Flames will have to settle for picks rather than the deal they want because the necessities of budget capital will necessitate this.

Adding 8 million dollars to the payroll without first subtracting 6.75 from it means when the crucial time comes to add you Plan A options, you might not be able to get your Plan A or Plan B assets because you're over committed on cap.

If the Flames are including Gaudreau in the deal for Hall's rights, that changes the complexion of the trade and is probably the best case scenario of all, but it takes two to tango and treliving's GM history is marred by unconsummated trades because both parties wanted to lead on the dance floor.

If I'm shopping for a LW this season and the Flames are asking the moon for Gaudreau, I probably see what else is out there. If I've had preliminary trade talks already with the flames and believe they are out to lunch, maybe i am prioritizing a free agent instead of a trade.

Gaudreau is a very attractive commodity, i'm not saying he has no value. What I *am* saying is that having Hall already signed doesn't improve Gaudreau's trade value, and if it does anything, it lowers it or at least restricts the asset class package Calgary can practically ask for.

[Geeoff]

Jankowski is an RFA and I don't think the Flames will qualify him

[dammage79]

I can agree with Flash on the last paragraph. Flames will have to work the Johnny trade through first and then make the FA decision. Thankfully the draft is where tree does his best trade work so that happens before FA.

I dont really want Hall, just have always operated on the assumption that if two parties like each other, they usually come come together. Thing for Hall is though, you can't cut too deep into the core. So for him to sign therell be some shuffling of the chairs on the deck before he would commit.

I think he signs if he knows he is the replacement for Johnny. But a couple of other things need to iron out as well, like goaltebding, how they're moving forward with the Defense, and who the coach is going to be.

Again, thankfully most of this will happen before FA and the time to bring in a hypothetical Hall level player.

I just want ot all to happen now. Waiting sucks.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by 868904

I get the anxiety of paying in the free agent market.

Paying $4 plus million for Brouwer, stupid.

Paying Neal $6 million, stupid.

But Hall is a legitimate first liner. The better way to look at it is would you rather pay Hall $8 million or extend Johnny for $8 million.

The other way to look at it is that signing Hall allows the team to trade Johnny for young assets.

If they don’t sign Hall, I think the Johnny trade will be a hockey trade probably for an under performing asset with flaws like Johnny.

If they can sign Hall, I bet the Johnny trade is for futures at the draft, a top ten pick hopefully or even multiple picks (mid first and bunch of seconds).

The owners won’t let management tear it down and rebuild. They are already hurting this year with lost ticket revenue, they will probably hurt next year too with attendance restrictions. The owners will want The interest level high and no one is going to buy tickets to watch a rebuilding team. The team also needs to maintain cash flows with a big arena project on the horizon.

Also, a rebuild that goes badly probably means Tkachuk will want out after his current contract, you could be rebuilding for a decade.

Singing Hall and trading Johnny for futures is the best play out there. It’s the best of both worlds.

Trading Gaudreau for futures and not signing hall is the best play out there. Maintaining cap flexibility to take on bad contracts for serious asset value is the best play out there. Taking on David Backes earned Anaheim a 1st round pick and a prospect all for moving a player they weren't committed to long term anyway.

Helps you bottom out, removes any rose coloured ideas you have about the roster. Begins a commitment to dismantling this failed re-tool without a 2015 run jeopardizing your internal structure.

Trading a draft pick for the right to pay taylor hall 56 million dollars does the opposite of those things.

[The Original FFIV]

Originally Posted by 868904

I don’t think you necessarily spend so much on defense. We’ve had the top end defense core for years and it’s gotten us no where. We have plenty of young defensemen on entry level deals, it wouldn’t be the worst thing to play them, there are stil 3 veterans signed here and they can always go bargain shopping for another veteran 7th to help tutor and provide leadership (Engelland).

I assume Jankowski is gone and hopefully they can get a pick of some kind. I think some teams will gamble on him.

I like Mangiapane but if he asks for too much and it comes down to him vs having Hall and capspace, I trade him. Love his compete but he is still an undersized winger and they all struggle in the playoffs. Flames might get a good return for him.

You can also move Ryan, he’s a useful player with a big cap hit but he’s also UFA after this season, better to get something for an expiring asset along with cap space. And again, another undersized forward.

Agree with the top heavy d comment. Sutter did it. Tree is doing it. Is it related to spending top money on players that actually want to play here (hamonic/Bouwmeester)? Probably. We’ve spent top dollar on Brouwer and Neal too which have ended in disaster. So we load up on D and have a middling F group. Comes down to drafting and developing forwards as free agents worth their salt typically go to greener pastures. Let’s see what these young guys that we signed have and if Kylington want to come back, run with him to see what he can bring.

Janko - which team would give him a raise on 1.6m? He’s a ufa after not being qualified.

Gotta keep mangiapane. Even if it means a Trade or buyout of Ryan. We finally find a top 9F that we’ve developed and has upside. Can’t move him out. Would have to spend money on a top 9 to replace him as we don’t have anything within organization to play that role.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I'm still looking at Florida.

Mandate is to reportedly cut salaries, and while Barkov is undoubtedly unavailable...what about Aaron Ekblad?

Noah Hanifin + 1st in 2020 for Aaron Ekblad. Cuts their cap by 2.55M, but also looking at Ekblad's salary structure he is owed $6M, $9M, $6M, $7M, $7M compared to Hanifin's flat $4.95M.

Couple that with:

Johnny Gaudreau + David Rittich for New Jersey's 7th Overall pick. Gives New Jersey their top line winger as well as a goalie to be in a tandem with Blackwood.

I think those deals are fair for both sides. I don’t think Rittich would interest them with the goaltender market being what it is, but I’d say a 2nd rounder or two would substitute.

[codynw]

Originally Posted by Geeoff

Jankowski is an RFA and I don't think the Flames will qualify him

Yea there's no way Jankowski gets qualified. They may try to negotiate with him after though.

[Flash Walken]

Yeah, I think the flames re-sign janko to a ~1m x 1yr deal

[868904]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Trading Gaudreau for futures and not signing hall is the best play out there. Maintaining cap flexibility to take on bad contracts for serious asset value is the best play out there. Taking on David Backes earned Anaheim a 1st round pick and a prospect all for moving a player they weren't committed to long term anyway.

Helps you bottom out, removes any rose coloured ideas you have about the roster. Begins a commitment to dismantling this failed re-tool without a 2015 run jeopardizing your internal structure.

Trading a draft pick for the right to pay taylor hall 56 million dollars does the opposite of those things.

Owners won’t let you tear it down.

You keep ignoring the one fact.

You do what you can with what you are given.

It’s easy to say, sure let’s play to an empty building when it’s nkt your money.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

What's the plan if it doesn't come to fruition, what if Hall doesn't sign in Calgary?

Hall isn't the only option out there. They could add another top six forward and then still deal Gaudreau to fill the other gaps. It might be beneficial to look at other options other than Hall as well. While not at the same level as Hall the Flames could sign Toffoli (RW), Nugent-Hopkins (C), Hoffman (LW), Dadonov (LW), Granlund (C), or Namestnikov (LW) and still be able to trade Gaudreau for additional assets. This isn't a one or nothing scenario.

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Signing hall before dealing Gaudreau means you have 3 left wingers on the team making a combined 20-23 million while still needing at least 4 Defenders and the rest of the roster to fill out.

Adding hall before subtracting Gaudreau actually puts more pressure on the Flames to consummate a trade, not less.

That may be the dumbest thing I've heard. Having too much talent at a position is a weakness? Especially in the off season when teams can jockey around. If Gaudreau hits the market there will be a number of teams knocking on the door regardless of the Flames salary situation. It isn't an issue, but you already know that and are just trolling.