New Poll: Should/Will the Flames Keep Treliving

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

This. This so much.

I don't believe in Treliving like many on here do.

But I also don't believe in this organization's ability to get a high-end GM. The devil you know and all that.

Yeah, Fletcher got a 12-15 year run in before before he became a good GM, so by the end of the decade we should all be getting pretty excited. Maybe that's the best we can hope for here.

[timbit]

Nm

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Too much success too soon. It happens to lots of professional athletes. They have success (points, money, acclaim) playing the way they enjoy. When a coach comes along and tries to show them that their way of playing will not translate to success in the playoffs, they can either get onboard or tune out the coach. IMHO, Gaudreau and Monahan did the latter. They were getting points. Getting paid. Why change?

Now, is that on Treliving? I guess it is to some extent. He could have told his star players to knuckle down and do what their coach told them. Scotty Bowman famously had that kind of talk with Steve Yzerman back before the Wings had won anything. Buckle down and change the way you play or you're out of here. And Yzerman listened. Today, that's less common. Players have more power than coaches - and often GMs - and they know it. This team had much the same problem with latter-day Iginla.

The fortunes of pro sports franchises often ride on whether they can acquire star players, and whether those star players are the kind who will do whatever the coach asks them to do to win. If that happens, everything else follows. If it doesn't, you spend years treading water until the stars retire or get moved.

Scotty says that story isn't true, and that even if he'd wanted to trade Yzerman he wouldn't have been able to because Illitch treated Stevey like a son.

One thing Bowman DID do though was trade Paul Coffey off the wings after two playoff disappointments with bowman reportedly telling Coffey it was because bowman was 'tired of being vilified' by 'selfish players'.

This was the second time Bowman had Coffey traded, Bowman went on to win the cup both times following the trade.

I think maybe the Flames/Treliving may have reached that threshold.

[taxbuster]

I'm sure Tre will have "a process" for that.

[Ped]

It's been 6 years for Treliving. Is this where you want to be after six years? Where you think you should be? How close to the next level do you think you are? Those answers will dictate whether he should go, but not if he will, because that's a whole different set of criteria.


Another poster pointed out that the players let him down. But if you've committed to those players, that's on you too. And that's easier in hindsight than say, identifying early that Johnny for example may not have what it takes, but if you trade him the fans revolt, or the owners won't let you, or a million other things.

[bluejays]

Question to those on CP. I think most have come to the realization that JG isn't the savior the team needs, so when did that first get "confirmed" in your mind? It's important to consider because for me I'd say it was last year when guys were leaning on him. I realized he couldn't carry the team on his back as well as he did the first few seasons where he had that extra jump. For his salary I still think he does fine, but if you're looking for him to be that franchise forward based on skill alone, he can't get it done. On a team where he'd be the third option with guys bigger who could surround him or spread offences thin, then he'd do very very well I think. We just don't have the supporting cast to help him succeed, so now it's pretty confirmed that it's not a good fit for both sides.


With that said, Treliving has probably come to that conclusion by now, and I wonder if at some point he's tried to bring in someone to support him with no success. It's a shame, but I think JG's early success really primed him for an over-the-top trajectory like Fleury or St.Louis, and nobody wanted to admit he was never going to be that type of player.

[Flamenspiel]

Well, you can’t look at Gaudreau in isolation. The fact is that the Flames are short of talent in comparison to the other teams. Vancouver, Dallas, and Colorado seemed to have developed a whole layer of stars after their initial group. Vancouver had Boeser and Horvat and added to that. They did not trade Boeser and Horvat while Pettersson and the others showed up. Same thing with Dallas, they added more talent after Seguin and Benn. A successful franchise does not get rid of players, they identify a need and go after it.

If a better player can be brought in with core assets then you do it, but I don’ want to see more of the Stajan, White, and Jamaal Mayers type trades. You also have to be patient, Ottawa and Colorado waited a very long time before trading Duchene and Karleson respectively.

[Da_Chief]

Failed to find a coach.

Failed to find a #1 goalie.

Failed to find #1 center.

Top pair was dropped in his lap from previous regimes and he's wasted assets afterwards just to get dman behind them. Now half of that top pair is over the hill and the other most likely leaving as UFA while the guys behind them aren't ready.

Several Failed UFA contracts.

Jackets taking Dubois (great pick btw, not just taking the consensus player ranked by publications) saved him from messing up the Tkachuk pick.

Continuing with an average at best scouting department from previous regimes.

Is there anything to like? But he got his extension and will continue to bumble his way into "learning" on the job.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

Well, you can’t look at Gaudreau in isolation. The fact is that the Flames are short of talent in comparison to the other teams. Vancouver, Dallas, and Colorado seemed to have developed a whole layer of stars after their initial group. Vancouver had Boeser and Horvat and added to that. They did not trade Boeser and Horvat while Pettersson and the others showed up. Same thing with Dallas, they added more talent after Seguin and Benn. A successful franchise does not get rid of players, they identify a need and go after it.

If a better player can be brought in with core assets then you do it, but I don’ want to see more of the Stajan, White, and Jamaal Mayers type trades. You also have to be patient, Ottawa and Colorado waited a very long time before trading Duchene and Karleson respectively.

This is a good point, so in other words we should be adding to the forward group so as to not diminish talent, or having to start over? So would Hall be a stronger, better fit with Johnny if we could address the center position with bigger impact player? Wonder if Bennett fit with those 2 if he can be convinced to bring a harnessed version of playoff style to the top line?

[Flash Walken]

The answer to the centre problem isn't to sign another high priced winger to play his off-wing with Bennett as his centre.

[bluejays]

Bennett isn’t a top two line player offensively. He’s a playoff performer fit for the third line and maybe on occasion the second but you can’t expect anything from him on your first on a championship contender. He needs to be kept.

[Flash Walken]

I've wondered a lot whether Monahan is the cause or the victim of the lack of centre depth.

I think in an ideal world he is a winger, and the lack of centre options in the organization the entire time he's been with the team has cast him into a position he's not ideally suited for.

He's the best option the team has, but that's really the problem, isn't it?

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

Well, you can’t look at Gaudreau in isolation. The fact is that the Flames are short of talent in comparison to the other teams. Vancouver, Dallas, and Colorado seemed to have developed a whole layer of stars after their initial group. Vancouver had Boeser and Horvat and added to that. They did not trade Boeser and Horvat while Pettersson and the others showed up. Same thing with Dallas, they added more talent after Seguin and Benn. A successful franchise does not get rid of players, they identify a need and go after it.

If a better player can be brought in with core assets then you do it, but I don’ want to see more of the Stajan, White, and Jamaal Mayers type trades. You also have to be patient, Ottawa and Colorado waited a very long time before trading Duchene and Karleson respectively.

I fully agree you can’t look at Gaudreau in isolation. However, I think the time to add someone to help him has sailed in the cap world. I say deal him in a package to get a first, sign Hall, and develop the first in a quick retool. There are pieces to trade to not completely strip the team down to a complete rebuild. Some of these guys are just regular season performers and that shows me second line status in the playoffs.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I've wondered a lot whether Monahan is the cause or the victim of the lack of centre depth.

I think in an ideal world he is a winger, and the lack of centre options in the organization the entire time he's been with the team has cast him into a position he's not ideally suited for.

He's the best option the team has, but that's really the problem, isn't it?

He is Tim Kerr, isn't he, if you are old enough to remember?

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

He is Tim Kerr, isn't he, if you are old enough to remember?

I remember the end of his career which was not spectacular.

I think another comparison is Elias Lindholm, a much better winger than centre.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by fleury

Bennett isn’t a top two line player offensively. He’s a playoff performer fit for the third line and maybe on occasion the second but you can’t expect anything from him on your first on a championship contender. He needs to be kept.

I guess I'm just trying to find a certain type of player that would fit, improve, or compliment the top-line. Bennett has some of those desired qualities but I agree likely not enough. Bottom line, we need a high end top line if we are going to have any success pushing some of the skilled players down the line. BT paying too much for guys not getting the job done.

[CliffFletcher]

I agree Monahan was slotted in the centre role early because the Flames didn't have many other options. His synergy with Gaudreau cemented the role. But he doesn't have the qualities teams typically look for in a centre in today's NHL: speed, the ability to distribute the puck, and defensive acumen.

The player he reminds me of most is James van Reimsdyk. Who isn't a centre.

I wonder if the Flames have considered trying Dube at centre. He played centre in junior, and has all the attributes. The only thing missing is size.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by DazzlinDino

I guess I'm just trying to find a certain type of player that would fit, improve, or compliment the top-line. Bennett has some of those desired qualities but I agree likely not enough. Bottom line, we need a high end top line if we are going to have any success pushing some of the skilled players down the line. BT paying too much for guys not getting the job done.

Yup. So in a cap situation you may be able to sign one of those guys, but two likely have to be drafted. The only way you can get those is if you deal Gaudreau and Monahan I think. Then you pray your scouts are right and your player development is right. It’s not easy.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by fleury

Bennett isn’t a top two line player offensively. He’s a playoff performer fit for the third line and maybe on occasion the second but you can’t expect anything from him on your first on a championship contender. He needs to be kept.

Not sure how you can say he isn't a top six player offensively.

Literally the one season he played in that spot, as a winger, he produced 18 goals and 18 assists - as a rookie.

He's earned a shot to play with offensive players, and that's what he should be rewarded with. Perhaps his role is as 3rd line centre with good wingers next year, but he's earned PP time. Dude has one of the better point shots on the team and can actually one-time a puck.

If Bennett doesn't get rewarded, this team is truly lost.

[Fan69]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I've wondered a lot whether Monahan is the cause or the victim of the lack of centre depth.

I think in an ideal world he is a winger, and the lack of centre options in the organization the entire time he's been with the team has cast him into a position he's not ideally suited for.

He's the best option the team has, but that's really the problem, isn't it?

Finally someone who can see. We are lining Monahan up against generational and franchise centers, a lot of them in the west. If you can't significantly improve on Monahan you need to out depth other teams, hence the Kadri trade, because getting better than Monahan will probably require being top 5 in the draft.
Trade J.G. Get that top pick or swing the deal that gets that up and coming young center.

Monahan
Mystery center X
Backs/Bennett
Ryan

Monahan rides the main seat until center X gets the experience he needs then slowly supplants Monahan as number 1.

that changes our line up considerably to my mind.