Poll Request: Retool or Rebuild?

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Other teams can be desperate or impatient too. Look at Vegas. When they concluded their window was now, they traded away two very good prospects in Suzuki (drafted 13 OA) and Brannstrom (15 OA). Suzuki looks like he'll be a #1/2 C. Brannstrom is likely a top-4 d-man going forward, maybe even top pairing. I think the Habs and Sens are both happy with those deals now.

What is rarely on the table are elite blue chip prospects like Cozens, or top 8 OA picks. They're just too valuable to teams in an era when the draft is the lifeblood of a franchise, and impact players on entry-level contracts are absolute gold.

The Flames should rebuild properly. Acquire lots of 1st and 2nd round picks and rebuild through the draft. But they won't. Edwards is too arrogant or impatient. And ownership won't want a team sitting 26th in the NHL when their corporate box and seasons tickets drives are in high gear two years from now. Treliving's marching orders will be to retool.

Ownership might come to their senses if the Flames miss the playoffs next season. But just as they did during the Iginla era, they'll refuse to recognize the need for a rebuild until they have no other choice.

Treliving will be active this off-season. Gaudreau, Monahan, maybe Hanifin will be gone. Expect deals for 19-21 year old prospects who are a tier down from blue-chippers, late 1st and 2nd round picks, along with reclamation projects who might benefit from a change of scenery. It also wouldn't surprise me if the team blew any of the salary freed up on a big-ticket UFA like Hall or one of the goalies.

I think you nail it here. We can talk about rebuilding but it won’t happen in the sense you tear it down and make a ton of picks and hope to suck bad enough to get a top pick in a deep draft. No guarantees that works. Winnipeg was painfully patient to see a window last exactly 1 year. So many of their great prospects didn’t pan out.

I could see picks in the 7-10 range being on the table. Arizona wanted to push forward and traded the 7th pick in 2017 for Stepan and Raanta. Buffalo is a team desperate to take a step forward and will have interest in Monahan no doubt. New Jersey is also a team that has picked high several years and will want to push their program forward and Gaudreau is a nice fit there.

Those are the teams the Flames should target. That is what Philly did when they traded Richards and Carter. LA was a young up and coming team with some deep prospects and traded former 5th overall pick Schenn along with young roster player Simmons and a 2nd for Richards. Columbus was a team desperate to get help for their superstar winger Rick Nash so they gave up the 8th pick and recent top 10 pick in Voracek to get Carter.

Those are the teams the Flames should be targeting for trades with Monahan and Gaudreau.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

Even in the absence of the pandemic, I would think that management would want the city to be excited and on the flames bandwagon by the time the new building is up. I don't think it'll be a pretty picture if the team is forced to rebuild at the time the new building cones up (a la Detroit).

I am curious if the owners are willing to invest now, rebuild and use deep pockets to maximize asset returns by Taking on salary (Ie. Retaining salary, collecting picks as the byproduct of taking on a bad contract, etc).

Then I wake up. This management team doesn't cars to win the cup. They just need to make the playoffs. Being mediocre is sufficient given that half the teams make the post season.

The only reason I think they would consider a rebuild is to try and slash salary and do a little tank until the new building is done. That would mean no retaining on trades and just trying to clear the cap sheet

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

The only reason I think they would consider a rebuild is to try and slash salary and do a little tank until the new building is done. That would mean no retaining on trades and just trying to clear the cap sheet

Retain on Gaudreau and it’s off the books in 2 years, well before the new arena.

Retain on Monahan and it’s off the books in 3 years, well before the new arena.

Retain on Giordano and it’s off the books in 2 years, well before the new arena.

If this organization was smart, this is what they’d do. Make out like bandits on the returns, and then be very clear on the identity of this team going forward. Tkachuk, Bennett, and Dube are your leaders up front. Andersson is your leader on the back-end. If you don’t compete as hard as these guys, you aren’t a Calgary Flame. It’s young, but that’s the way the league is trending. Hire a coach who can be a leader and a teacher. Sign a top end goalie to keep the team competitive in games and throughout the season. If Wolf ends up being the real deal he’s going to need someone worth learning from at the NHL level - go get that top end goalie now and it will help today and future goalies.

[Vinny01]

My point is owners will potentially support a rebuild of it saves them money. I don’t see them retaining salary and doing things like that if it costs them money. No spending to the cap, just slash big salaries which will result in the team sucking and they get some high picks. They open up the wallets when we pay a bunch more money to watch games in the new rink.


If the owners are spending to the cap I suspect they will want to win

[Mr.Coffee]

I’m amazed people want to “re-tool” whatever the hell that means. Brutal.

[AC]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

I’m amazed people want to “re-tool” whatever the hell that means. Brutal.

What is the difference exactly?

As presented in the OP:

Would you rather see the team rebuild completely starting with a new core centered around Tkatchuk?

Or trade a big piece or two, make a significant signing and simply retool?

New core centered around Tkachuk means trading a big piece or two by definition, no?

Sounds like they're describing the same scenario. To me, a rebuild means you're essentially gunning for a top draft pick next year by design.

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

I’m amazed people want to “re-tool” whatever the hell that means. Brutal.

I am all for retooling. Most trade partners need to send money back the other way, so you trade a few big pieces (Mony and Johnny type), take back high draft picks and some salary that you can expose in expansion draft.

Hope the draft picks become roster players soon.

I am not for “full rebuild tanking” to try and get a high draft pick. Try to create and keep a winning culture, unlike the team to the north.

[Mr.Coffee]

The best way for Edwards to make money is to start the rebuild. It gets people excited and prepared to pay for what’s to come.

We know what this team is. Not a championship team. This is a losing team that won’t amount to anything.

We don’t know what the team is after They blow it up. It’s like the mystery box scene in Family guy except instead of the boat as the option it’s a piece of already chewed bubblegum.

[Petert]

Rebuild?
Anybody still remember the young guns days?

Nazarov-Shantz-Bure
Yup, that was exciting that people are paying in drove to see.
Used to be able to get $20 ticket right before game time.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by Petert

Rebuild?
Anybody still remember the young guns days?

Nazarov-Shantz-Bure
Yup, that was exciting that people are paying in drove to see.
Used to be able to get $20 ticket right before game time.

Was this year exciting? Sens fans are probably more optimistic and excited than Flames fans right now.

[nieuwy-89]

Rebuild. Use the Canucks as the template. Get one elite player at each position and build from there. Can be done in 3 years in time for the new building and hopefully a stronger economy in Calgary to support a cup contender.

The current core is not even close.

[Dragomir]

Been saying it since day one of this season, blow it up and at least sell us on some hope.

[taxbuster]

I went for Rebuild, but not sure there is really a big difference. That may depend more on who is in the GM's chair and the Coach's spot behind the bench. It's possible that a retool, with a few "well chosen" trades, but backed by a smart GM and a track-record-of-accomplishments-coach could turn this team around. I'm not convinced, though that is true. Maybe just a pipe dream.

So maybe rebuild - which STILL has to involve the GM and Coach; dump the rot and plugs, and build a good team of hard-working guys. Some talent to lead the charge, but the work effort needs to be #1 every single night. That IS how good teams win. They don't need to rely just on a couple of guys ("cough" Edmonton), but seek a few excellent players and provide them with dedicated supporters. THAT might take a full-scale house-cleaning of a a pretty major variety. There's probably 5-8 guys to keep, and the rest can remain golfing.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Was this year exciting? Sens fans are probably more optimistic and excited than Flames fans right now.

No, it really wasn't fun this year. More often than not the Flames sucked on home ice this season. There were a few highlight games, but a lot of just horrid disasters of unentertaining hockey leading to losses.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Petert

Rebuild?
Anybody still remember the young guns days?

Nazarov-Shantz-Bure
Yup, that was exciting that people are paying in drove to see.
Used to be able to get $20 ticket right before game time.

That was a completely different circumstance.


The "young guns era" - was horrible because it was trying to market the young kids coming into the organization, but with one caveat - we all knew as Flames' fans that if any of them got any good, the Flames wouldn't be able to retain them. It felt like we were cheering on a farm team, not really an NHL team.


Remember the first season of the rebuild here in Calgary after Iginla was traded? Fans applauded the team often at the end of the game. That was fantastic to see and be a part of. Nobody felt like we 'were cheering on a farm team'. Us fans felt like we were watching the future superstars of the Calgary Flames on their way to becoming a contender finally.


Huge difference. Will there be people who won't renew their season tickets? Yes, there will be. Of course there will be.


However, if the Flames aren't going to be contenders with how this team is assembled, then better to kickstart the rebuild now before the new building is done. With the pandemic underway, it may also be a shrewd move both on the books and to minimize the length of time in having an inferior team as it goes through the growing pains.


It may not work out any better than what this version of the Flames is - and I don't think that the Flames are going this route anyway, but it isn't anything like the young guns era - not by a longshot.

[taxbuster]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

The best way for Edwards to make money is to start the rebuild. It gets people excited and prepared to pay for what’s to come.

Here's the problem with that: it doesn't matter what the team does, win, lose, flop, disgust us, delight us. Edwards makes money just by virtue of owning one of 31, soon to be 32, franchises. There's only so many, and there's always someone who wants to buy one. And that is really where the money is made. As long as the team doesn't lose dramatic amounts on a fiscal year basis, he could care less. It simply doesn't matter if he makes an extra million or two. His value has escalated by several hundred million or more. Why would he care too much about a couple more?

According to Forbes (https://www.forbes.com/teams/calgary.../#623e96419050) the franchise value was $210M in 2010. It was $500M in 2019. That's $30M/year....regardless of what the Flames do or don't do. A choke year provides just as much as a successful one. (OK...some extra from playoffs if a long run, but we all know what chances of that looks like.)

[Petert]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Was this year exciting? Sens fans are probably more optimistic and excited than Flames fans right now.

More exciting than all those years not making the playoffs.
This is starting to remind me on how everybody used to bitch about Dave King of ONLY making the 1st round.
The moment we fired that half decent coach, we never made the playoffs until Darryl came along.

And seriously?
Sens as in Ottawa Senators?
Excited at what Melnyk is going to screw up next?

Nobody is paying nothing to watch a "rebuild" team.
Sports is entertainment, until the on ice product is exciting, there is no excitement and there is no revenue.
Johnny Hockey on the 1st line is entertainment, Val Bure on the 1st line is not.

We need a real elite coach before we need anything else at this moment.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Petert

More exciting than all those years not making the playoffs.
This is starting to remind me on how everybody used to bitch about Dave King of ONLY making the 1st round.
The moment we fired that half decent coach, we never made the playoffs until Darryl came along.

And seriously?
Sens as in Ottawa Senators?
Excited at what Melnyk is going to screw up next?

Nobody is paying nothing to watch a "rebuild" team.
Sports is entertainment, until the on ice product is exciting, there is no excitement and there is no revenue.
Johnny Hockey on the 1st line is entertainment, Val Bure on the 1st line is not.

We need a real elite coach before we need anything else at this moment.

Season Ticket Holder here. I'm there to watch the team develop into a contender. Not languish in futility like it has for 30 years.

I'm way more likely to keep my season tickets if they do go for a rebuild than if they don't. This team has done nothing but battle for 16th for the last decade+, and it does not make for an entertaining on-ice product 9 out of 10 years (...at best)

The excitement of watching Johnny play has faded because it's underscored by the fact that if you know it's an important rivalry or playoff game where intensity gets ratcheted up - he and the team around him fade. So much of what the team is selling is hope and excitement - usually hope, and then excitement. Right now? It doesn't have either to sell.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by taxbuster

Here's the problem with that: it doesn't matter what the team does, win, lose, flop, disgust us, delight us. Edwards makes money just by virtue of owning one of 31, soon to be 32, franchises. There's only so many, and there's always someone who wants to buy one. And that is really where the money is made. As long as the team doesn't lose dramatic amounts on a fiscal year basis, he could care less. It simply doesn't matter if he makes an extra million or two. His value has escalated by several hundred million or more. Why would he care too much about a couple more?

According to Forbes (https://www.forbes.com/teams/calgary.../#623e96419050) the franchise value was $210M in 2010. It was $500M in 2019. That's $30M/year....regardless of what the Flames do or don't do. A choke year provides just as much as a successful one. (OK...some extra from playoffs if a long run, but we all know what chances of that looks like.)

That's been the history for sure.

Not sure it's the present or midterm future.

I've felt for a long time that sports was evolving towards TV and away from the live experience, and that could be sped up if this covid thing doesn't go away soon.

Even if it does go away we may see people still hesitant.

Add in a new building that people are less eager to spend up to and we may see franchise values of sports that rely on butts in seats drifting downward.

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by Petert

Rebuild?
Anybody still remember the young guns days?

Nazarov-Shantz-Bure
Yup, that was exciting that people are paying in drove to see.
Used to be able to get $20 ticket right before game time.

Totally different time. Apples and oranges.

People still showed up to watch the team when the top line was Glencross-Backlund-Stempniak, and our goaltending tandem was a freaking three-headed monster of Berra, Ramo, and Joey Macdonald. Remember that?

It's easy to sell Canadian fans on hope. Edmonton's been doing it for decades. What you can't sell them on is a team with no direction and no future, that either misses the playoffs or loses in the first round and drafts in the mid to late teens every year.

This team lacks top end talent at every position, and until that gets fixed all you're doing is moving deck chairs on the Titanic. Signing Hall changes nothing about the fundamentally dysfunctional construction of this team.