Poll Request: Retool or Rebuild?

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by devo22

still think Philly would be a great trading partner. Obviously that's Johnny's team, and if they want him, they have a lot of great young pieces to make it work. Frost and Myers, for example.

What we need is Philly to get to the finals and lose, leading them to believe they're close and just need one more piece. Gaudreau.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

This is just as wrong now as it was 7 years ago when you tried to dismiss the same thing the same way.


It took 3 years of consistent acquisition and selling.

LOL. Did you seriously just repost a post where you quoted yourself? Holy #### man, get over yourself.

Also, how did I 'dismiss the same thing the same way'?

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

LOL. Did you seriously just repost a post where you quoted yourself? Holy #### man, get over yourself.

Also, how did I 'dismiss the same thing the same way'?

wrong link: https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showpo...1&postcount=30

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Valimaki has played 24 games. In those 24 games, did you see Miro Heiskanen? Because I didn't. He'll be a fine player, I'm sure, but is he a dynamic gamebreaker that we need to move the needle and win multiple rounds in the playoffs? Absolutely no way to know.

Andersson is a good player. He's around as good as Brodie, which is nothing to sneeze at.

Hanifin... Does Noah Hanifin have any signature moments or games as a Flame? I dunno. He's a great skater, but he doesn't have any offensive instincts, and I don't think he's anything special defensively. He'll get better, but he's nothing that every other team doesn't have.

Did you watch all of Heiskanen's first 24 games in the league?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

wrong link: https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showpo...1&postcount=30

So how does quoting me saying the same thing in the past in any way prove I was wrong? YOu offerred your opinion then, which is the same as your opinion now: that their rebuild only took 3 years. repeating yourself doesn't make you right.

Chicago did a rebuild 2.0 after Wirtz died, but that doesn't change the fact that they had lots of assets to work with after sucking for years.

Starting at the bottom and getting lottery picks right away, is very helpful when it comes to a rebuild. And the Flames are not in that position.

[Azure]

I actually think Ward did a pretty great job considering the mess that Peters had obviously created.

Sorry, but successful teams have good leadership and know how to deal with adversity, and clearly the Flames do not know how to do that.

Can you we blame Ward? I think if he would have kept Talbot in, it would have given them a chance to win.

Big Save Dave wasn't prepared. He is far to emotionally prone to getting rattled. Should have expected that as a coach.

But other than that how much can Ward do in the short time he was given?
At the end of the day Tre brought in the coaches, and the players, and the result is on him.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

When you trade for prospects you're getting some of the worst return possible because you're either overpaying significantly for a player an organization doesn't want to let go, or you're paying market price for a player they don't mind letting go.

Trading for prospects as the major components of trades is a re-tool, it won't work, it's a bad idea and the Flames shouldn't do that if they want to be competitive.

Other teams can be desperate or impatient too. Look at Vegas. When they concluded their window was now, they traded away two very good prospects in Suzuki (drafted 13 OA) and Brannstrom (15 OA). Suzuki looks like he'll be a #1/2 C. Brannstrom is likely a top-4 d-man going forward, maybe even top pairing. I think the Habs and Sens are both happy with those deals now.

What is rarely on the table are elite blue chip prospects like Cozens, or top 8 OA picks. They're just too valuable to teams in an era when the draft is the lifeblood of a franchise, and impact players on entry-level contracts are absolute gold.

The Flames should rebuild properly. Acquire lots of 1st and 2nd round picks and rebuild through the draft. But they won't. Edwards is too arrogant or impatient. And ownership won't want a team sitting 26th in the NHL when their corporate box and seasons tickets drives are in high gear two years from now. Treliving's marching orders will be to retool.

Ownership might come to their senses if the Flames miss the playoffs next season. But just as they did during the Iginla era, they'll refuse to recognize the need for a rebuild until they have no other choice.

Treliving will be active this off-season. Gaudreau, Monahan, maybe Hanifin will be gone. Expect deals for 19-21 year old prospects who are a tier down from blue-chippers, late 1st and 2nd round picks, along with reclamation projects who might benefit from a change of scenery. It also wouldn't surprise me if the team blew any of the salary freed up on a big-ticket UFA like Hall or one of the goalies.

[Brick]

Rebuild. With a new GM, preferably.

[Enoch Root]

Obviously, picks are good, and more picks are better. But simply saying that acquiring prospects is wrong, and you should go after picks, is playing blind and limiting your flexibility. You have to take advantage of what is available to you.

Prospects are more expensive than picks because there is less uncertainty - you know what you are getting. With picks you don't (unless you are picking #1 or #2 overall).

Look at the 2016 draft - the Flames have the #6 pick, which is a very valuable asset, but they don't know what it is. If any team other than Columbus picks third, they probably take Puljujarvi. Then Edmonton takes Tkachuk and Van takes Dubois. Then the Flames probably take Sergachev or Chychrun (I read something once that said they would have taken Chychrun, but who knows). the point is that a draft pick is an unknown. A known commodity is going to be more valuable by definition.

Let's look at the 2013 draft where the Flames had another 6th overall, and a total of 3 first rounders. They couldn't know who would be available when they were picking, but they did know that MacKinnon was available at #1. So they offered up the 3 picks for MacKinnon, which is an expensive price but, as it turns out, would have been a great trade. It is unfair to evaluate it in hindsight, but the reason they were willing to pay the high price was the certainty of knowing what they were getting.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

wrong link: https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showpo...1&postcount=30

You've really legged out the Calgarypuck Forum Search engine this week huh?

I'd say I don't do that, but you'd likely spend a day looking for an instance where I have!

[SuperMatt18]

Yeah, Chicago would like you to think the rebuild "started" with the Toews pick but the reality is they had 5 top 10 picks in the 8 years before they picked Toews.

Really they had started stockpiling picks as early as the year 2000, and had made 98 draft picks in the 8 years prior to drafting Toews.

That would be like letting Oilers fans say the re-built started when they drafted McDavid.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

High praise is different from him being "often called the best #2 centre".
It's either hyperbole or just inaccurate.

There is a lot of love on this board for Backlund. He was mentioned by some as the #1 C with Frolik and 18 year old Tkachuk being the #1 line in 2016-17.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Bingo

You've really legged out the Calgarypuck Forum Search engine this week huh?

I'd say I don't do that, but you'd likely spend a day looking for an instance where I have!

A historical record is probably the best attribute of this board.

Particularly useful for an instance like this, the mythical 14 year Blackhawks rebuild!

[Otto29]

Rebuild.

Step 1 - Slap the C on Tkachuk
Step 2 - Fire sale. Nearly everyone must go starting with the GM and Coaches (all of them)

Reset the culture. Reset everything.

If a team like Las Vegas can be built from throwaways why can't the Flames. There has to be no fingerprints from the past

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

What we need is Philly to get to the finals and lose, leading them to believe they're close and just need one more piece. Gaudreau.

I could see them offering JVM 7.0 and Gostisbehere 4.5 total 11.5 for Gaudreau 6.75 and Lucic 5.25 total 12.0

Gaudreau had 78 goals over the last 3 years. and JVR 82. Gaudreau 18 and JVR 19 last season


If anyone has been paying attention to playoff Gaudreau that will be the kind of offers that will be on the table.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

There is a lot of love on this board for Backlund. He was mentioned by some as the #1 C with Frolik and 18 year old Tkachuk being the #1 line in 2016-17.

You seem to really enjoy twisting things into a knot to fit some sort of agenda you have.


No, nobody on this board was saying that Backlund was the #1 C on the team, and if they were... well... there are always oddballs with oddball opinions everywhere.


There were posts that were saying that the Backlund line was performing AS the #1 line - and they were down the stretch before the season was postponed. That's a quantitative observation, but that does not mean that they were or should be or will be - merely that they were the line down the stretch performing AS the #1 line.


There should be a lot of love on this board for Backlund anyway - he does a lot of the heavy lifting on this team, and he was 4th in Selke voting one year. He should definitely be MORE loved on this board IMO, but insinuating that people feel he is a bona fide #1 C is just your trolling at your worst.



FYI - most people feel that Backlund would be an elite #3 centre on a cup contending team because he is such a good 2-way centre. However, his historical numbers point to him being a decent 2nd line centre.


Only in your imagination does that mean people are saying he is some kind of 1st line, elite level, franchise or generational cornerstone player for this franchise.


I will seriously never understand people who intentionally log into another team's fan forum just to troll and get a rise out of people. I have zero interest in caring about what Winnipeg fans think, or waste my time in trying to get some random strangers mad just for the thrills... there are no thrills. It is just an incredible waste of time.

[Poe969]

This team is like a 2002 Buick LeSabre. It's reliable, you can count on it for some good times but it's not going to do anything special for you. Saying you want to keep players on this team is like saying you don't want to sell the LeSabre because it has an amazing stereo and performance tires. You're not going to win any races (championships) with it, attractive girls (top notch UFA's in this analogy) aren't lining up to get on board and it won't be long before things fall apart and you're left with nothing but expensive parts you can't do anything with.

[delayedreflex]

Depends on what exactly is meant by "rebuild". If that means tear everything down and collect a bunch of draft picks and suffer through a few years of terribleness, I don't think that is necessary. But at least one major move of a core player, I think is definitely warranted.

Ultimately I think the biggest decision will be on whether to keep Gaudreau, and I think that will depend a lot on how much you can get for him. As much as I love watching him (when he's on his game, he's the most entertaining Flames player I've ever seen), he just can't seem to get it done in the playoffs, and IMO has been on the decline this past year. But I just don't see him re-signing with Calgary after this contract is done so I think trading him now is likely the best asset management.

[Vinny01]

I have been thinking about what the owners want. With the pandemic and uncertainty when fans come back to watch games I wonder if ownership would be in support of slashing salary and going the rebuild route with a timeline of having the team back in contention by the time the new rink opens up?

If the Flames year it down now they could be on the rise again in 3-4 years.

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

I have been thinking about what the owners want. With the pandemic and uncertainty when fans come back to watch games I wonder if ownership would be in support of slashing salary and going the rebuild route with a timeline of having the team back in contention by the time the new rink opens up?

If the Flames year it down now they could be on the rise again in 3-4 years.

Even in the absence of the pandemic, I would think that management would want the city to be excited and on the flames bandwagon by the time the new building is up. I don't think it'll be a pretty picture if the team is forced to rebuild at the time the new building cones up (a la Detroit).

I am curious if the owners are willing to invest now, rebuild and use deep pockets to maximize asset returns by Taking on salary (Ie. Retaining salary, collecting picks as the byproduct of taking on a bad contract, etc).

Then I wake up. This management team doesn't cars to win the cup. They just need to make the playoffs. Being mediocre is sufficient given that half the teams make the post season.