[PGT] Anemic offense, Flames lose 2-1

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Is there some award to be won for signing free agents or spending to the cap with futility that I don't know about?

Everyone watching these games is thinking to themselves that this team is replacing Gaudreau with Hall away from what exactly?

Surely an 8 million dollar Taylor Hall and a 38 year old Giordano is what's going to stir the drink and bring the Flames to the promised land? It's definitely a great idea to build a team around two left wingers, right?

Maybe they need more motivational speakers for pre-game? Do some of you guys even read your own posts after you click submit?

A hard cap league is a zero sum game. You're not going to win a goddamned thing when you're paying Michael Stone 2 million dollars to fart into the same cushion for 70 games. When your big roster shakeup is putting in Rinaldo, it's a sign you're a dog#### organization that has no other option but to sign a PTO to fill out the roster.

Trusting the guy who's major accomplishments the last 3 sesaons for this organization hs been to lose trades and sign bad free agent deals to trade away Gaudreau and sign Hall?

Lord Almighty!

Whether the Flames win this series against a backup goalie or not, is anyone really in doubt on the trajectory of this group and the people running it?

Agreed. So what would you in this situation if you were the GM for the next number of years?

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Is there some award to be won for signing free agents or spending to the cap with futility that I don't know about?

Everyone watching these games is thinking to themselves that this team is replacing Gaudreau with Hall away from what exactly?

Surely an 8 million dollar Taylor Hall and a 38 year old Giordano is what's going to stir the drink and bring the Flames to the promised land? It's definitely a great idea to build a team around two left wingers, right?

Maybe they need more motivational speakers for pre-game? Do some of you guys even read your own posts after you click submit?

A hard cap league is a zero sum game. You're not going to win a goddamned thing when you're paying Michael Stone 2 million dollars to fart into the same cushion for 70 games. When your big roster shakeup is putting in Rinaldo, it's a sign you're a dog#### organization that has no other option but to sign a PTO to fill out the roster.

Trusting the guy who's major accomplishments the last 3 sesaons for this organization hs been to lose trades and sign bad free agent deals to trade away Gaudreau and sign Hall?

Lord Almighty!

Whether the Flames win this series against a backup goalie or not, is anyone really in doubt on the trajectory of this group and the people running it?

If we can gain a top line LW for nothing other than cap-space, it's a win.

So, assume we Trade Gaudreau to New Jersey for 7th overall and manage to draft Jamie Drysdale. He'd be instantly be on the fast track to being our best defence, and give us a young top four of:

Hanifin - Andersson
Valimaki - Drysdale

with this as our bottom two:

Giordano - ?

That's pretty dang solid - and yeah, perhaps Drysdale takes a year before jumping to the pros - but still, it sets the team up nicely.

Taylor replaces Gaudreau (Hall is a better all around 5 on 5 player), so I also think that is an improvement.

Bennett and Dube were also emerging in these playoffs - Bennett as a centre, that's huge. Re-work the forward group:

Tkachuk - Monahan - Lindholm --> that's pretty good 5 on 5, I'd argue.

Hall - Bennett - Dube --> this could be dynamite.

Mangiapne - Backlund - ? --> these two work well together

Lucic - Ryan - ? --> these two work well together

and lastly? Go out and pay Robin Lehner and Peter Laviolette.

That's the type of off-season I'd dream of. It re-shapes the culture pretty significantly and it sends a clear message to the team that you have to perform.

Throw away everything else though and just focus on Johnny out for assets, Hall in for cap. Our LW position improves (particularly in the playoffs), and we gain some prime assets from Johnny's departure. That's brilliant.


...barring Laviolette, Lehner and Hall all signing here though (dream upon dream upon dream)? Yeah, we're kinda boned.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

If we can gain a top line LW for nothing other than cap-space, it's a win.

So, assume we Trade Gaudreau to New Jersey for 7th overall and manage to draft Jamie Drysdale. He'd be instantly be on the fast track to being our best defence, and give us a young top four of:

Hanifin - Andersson
Valimaki - Drysdale

with this as our bottom two:

Giordano - ?

That's pretty dang solid - and yeah, perhaps Drysdale takes a year before jumping to the pros - but still, it sets the team up nicely.

Taylor replaces Gaudreau (Hall is a better all around 5 on 5 player), so I also think that is an improvement.

Bennett and Dube were also emerging in these playoffs - Bennett as a centre, that's huge. Re-work the forward group:

Tkachuk - Monahan - Lindholm --> that's pretty good 5 on 5, I'd argue.

Hall - Bennett - Dube --> this could be dynamite.

Mangiapne - Backlund - ? --> these two work well together

Lucic - Ryan - ? --> these two work well together

and lastly? Go out and pay Robin Lehner and Peter Laviolette.

That's the type of off-season I'd dream of. It re-shapes the culture pretty significantly and it sends a clear message to the team that you have to perform.

Throw away everything else though and just focus on Johnny out for assets, Hall in for cap. Our LW position improves (particularly in the playoffs), and we gain some prime assets from Johnny's departure. That's brilliant.

Are the core pieces listed here really going to be the ones to make us competitive in the playoffs.

I really think we need to start asking even tougher questions. I just don't see how even re-tooling this core gets this team anywhere. The defence especially looks like an absolute mess.

[3rd liner]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

If this team loses in round 1 again and doesn't come back next season with at least Gallant or Laviolette as the coach then what is the ####ing point?

There is no salary cap for a coach. Make them an offer they can't refuse FFS

Agree 100%. You see a valued coach like Trotz (not available I know, just giving an example) do so much with a team like the Islanders. Yes they have Barzal, but past that not a team of superstars to work with. Structure, structure, structure. And they are poised to eliminate the capitals. Spend the damn money on a coach.

I see the flashes of brilliance when lindy, gaudreau and monahan are fully activated. Then add in what we are seeing from the dube, lucic and bennett line this playoffs. Add in chucky at his best, backlund, eatbread. Imagine a coach who could harness that.


If we just sucked and had not talent, so be it. Rebuild. But knowing the pieces could be there to go on a run and yet seeing these poor efforts to start a pivotal playoff game is so frustrating. Underachieving is so ****** frustrating.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Are the core pieces listed here really going to be the ones to make us competitive in the playoffs.

I really think we need to start asking even tougher questions. I just don't see how even re-tooling this core gets this team anywhere.

I think the addition of an elite goalie, an elite coach and improvement at the #1 LW spot while we get some continued development from Mang, Dube and Bennett could be something worth a damn.

But also, Drysdale instantly becomes the biggest part of our defence. It's adding a huge core piece to the back-end.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Joborule

The trades and signings are up for debate in whether he's made more bad moves than good, but what I think is one glaring weakness for BT has been his coaching hires. All of them have been major misses. The fact he's going to be able to get a third coach in five years makes him very lucky.

But if he's not going to get a coach with a strong resume of playoff success AS A RECENT HEAD COACH, then it feels rather pointless since history is just going to repeat itself. At that point, what is BT really bringing here if he's not even giving his roster the best chance by getting a coach that knows how to win?

Talent wins games. Coaches coach, players play.

You draft players to play for you and you pay them lots of money when they are good.

When you #### up both parts of that equation there isn't a coach alive that's going to fix it.

The COACH!? You can't be serious at this point, can you? Was Peter's the problem when they got absolutely murdered last year in much the same way they are this year?

Players Play and coaches coach and right now Dallas gets a free shift basically every time the gaudreau line hits the ice.

Look at the composition of the teams, look at the matchups. Dallas is playing their fourth line 10-12 minutes game.

The Flames are hoping to Christ that the 7 minutes they give janko or the 5 minutes they give Rinaldo doesn't end up with multiple goals in the back of their net.

It's not even freaking close out there with the exception of Talbot being all-world right now becuse the talent discrepancy through the lineup for the two teams is massive.

Gaudreau and Tkachuk, when playing at peak performance, are enough to close that gap most nights, but when you're promoting toby ####ing reider to your top line because the only other alternative is Jankowski or Rinaldo, your team sucks really badly.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

Agreed. So what would you in this situation if you were the GM for the next number of years?

My team building philosophy is dreadfully simple:

[Ashasx]

FW comes back after 3 months dropping mad truth bombs and it hurts the soul.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Talent wins games. Coaches coach, players play.

You draft players to play for you and you pay them lots of money when they are good.

When you #### up both parts of that equation there isn't a coach alive that's going to fix it.

The COACH!? You can't be serious at this point, can you? Was Peter's the problem when they got absolutely murdered last year in much the same way they are this year?

Players Play and coaches coach and right now Dallas gets a free shift basically every time the gaudreau line hits the ice.

Look at the composition of the teams, look at the matchups. Dallas is playing their fourth line 10-12 minutes game.

The Flames are hoping to Christ that the 7 minutes they give janko or the 5 minutes they give Rinaldo doesn't end up with multiple goals in the back of their net.

It's not even freaking close out there with the exception of Talbot being all-world right now becuse the talent discrepancy through the lineup for the two teams is massive.

Gaudreau and Tkachuk, when playing at peak performance, are enough to close that gap most nights, but when you're promoting toby ####ing reider to your top line because the only other alternative is Jankowski or Rinaldo, your team sucks really badly.

The roster isn't great that's for sure and needs some pretty big changes, it's undeniable. It's just poorly constructed.

But coaches really do matter. Good coaches build a team into something more than it's parts. Bad coaches screw up player development and end up with large numbers of players having poor seasons.

It blows when you think about it. The Flames have neither a well built roster, nor a top end coach. They're aimlessly wandering in mediocrity.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I think the addition of an elite goalie, an elite coach and improvement at the #1 LW spot while we get some continued development from Mang, Dube and Bennett could be something worth a damn.

But also, Drysdale instantly becomes the biggest part of our defence. It's adding a huge core piece to the back-end.

I agree with this other than not a fan paying for lehner. Imo too many people blaming Monahan. He's a not an elite center no doubt but i truly believe Hall is an upgrade on playoff johnny. As much as Monahans lack of ability to carry the puci limits johnny johnny playing scared hurts just as much. Wheb you have 50 50 loose pucks go to johnnys corner and 100 percent go to the other guys its hurts just as bad . Difference for me is I expect johnny and tkachuk to be our best forwarss not Monahan and johnny imo can't use his line mates as an excuse of why he sucks. He has enough support to succeed. Time to move on.

Add the 7th overall pick with Hall. Maybe its not enough to change things but if not move Gio at the deadline and maybe Monahan next off season

[redmile04]

Originally Posted by Bunk

Flames since winning cup:
90: 1st round exit
91: 1st round exit
92: 1st round exit
93: 1st round exit
94: 1st round exit
95: 1st round exit
96: 1st round exit
97: no playoffs
98: no playoffs
99: no playoffs
00: no playoffs
01: no playoffs
02: no playoffs
03: no playoffs
04: finals!
06: 1st round exit
07: 1st round exit
08: 1st round exit
09: 1st round exit
10: no playoffs
11: no playoffs
12: no playoffs
13: no playoffs
14: no playoffs
15: 2nd round exit
16: no playoffs
17: 1st round exit
18: no playoffs
19: 1st round exit (#1 seed)
20: verge of 1st round exit

Guys, we know what happens next.

92 no playoffs...

[Strange Brew]

I am 100% all in on a big name, proven track record, expensive head coach. It would be a great step.

But back to the players skating on the ice.

Flames vs Ducks in 2017 - 2 even strength goals in 4 games
Flames vs Avs - 5 ES goals in 5 games
Flames vs Stars - 7 ES goals through 5 games

Different coaches. Different goalies. Different supporting cast.

14 even strength goals in 14 playoff games with many coming against a leaky backup goalie for the Stars.

Maybe it was too easy to focus on Elliott's gaffes against Anaheim and the disdain for the coach to see the problem then. Same problem against the Avs and the team inexplicably stands pat over the summer. But this summer it all gets fixed?

Regardless this is still a series. You win game 6 by hook or by crook and then you have one shot at eliminating your competitor. It can certainly happen. I still have hope.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

The roster isn't great that's for sure and needs some pretty big changes, it's undeniable. It's just poorly constructed.

But coaches really do matter. Good coaches build a team into something more than it's parts. Bad coaches screw up player development and end up with large numbers of players having poor seasons.

It blows when you think about it. The Flames have neither a well built roster, nor a top end coach. They're aimlessly wandering in mediocrity.

I think the need for an elite-skill, speedy #1 center is blatantly obvious. It's something the Flames simply don't have, and it's no surprise that the closest guys we do have to that - Backlund and Bennett - have been our most effective players in this series.

But that doesn't excuse the horrendous coaching this team has had for the last five years. Even Peters, who was an effective coach for half a season, ended up completely abandoning all the things that were working for him early on, and it led to a stagnant, lazy team towards the end of the year.

[Manhattanboy]

Nice to see Flash back. Too bad after a tough loss.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by taxbuster

Didn't he get fired for something or other?

He wasn't that great anyway, another middle of the road at best coach that never achieved much of anything. Funny how the one time since '89 we get a real coach we almost win it all. But hey, why try that formula again.

[SportsJunky]

Did he just say that Bennett is the closest thing Calgary has to an elite #1 center?

[kurwamac]

Sign Talbot - Trade Rittich


it's exactly like signing Hall & trading Gaudreau


I pound my fist on the table, let's get some assets. At least we could partially undo the Hamonic trade if we shop Rittich

[united]

Big shift in tactics from coach Ward tonight with Monahan and Gaudreau getting 7 offensive zone starts and 0 (!!!) defensive zone starts. They were on the ice for 1 faceoff in the defensive zone which was after an icing but that's it. They were also out for just 2 neutral zone faceoffs.

Coach Ward put the struggling duo in the best position to find offensive success as he possibly could and they still got #### all done. These two are going through some kind of funk (Lindholm too). Unreal. Not much else you can do or say.

Gaudreau: 16 attempts for and 16 against (50%) with an xG of 0.4 for and 0.47 against (46%).
Monahan: 17 attempts for and 21 against (45%) with an xG of 0.43 for and 0.57 against (43%).

[browna]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Nice to see Flash back. Too bad after a tough loss.

Would've been sooner but the Flames weren't a game away from potentially being eliminated vs the Jets.

I get that everyone wants to be first to espout their theories and write eulogies and be the "I told you so", but there is 3 to 4 months of that ahead, whether they are done Thursday or come back this series and are done in September.

As for today, tough.

Far better effort than last year's where the Game 2 OT loss after a bad Backlund miss shifted the momentum and Colorado took over, especially their best players. Flames have kept Benn and Seguin pretty quiet.

Last year the Flames were done after Game 3, this year, 40 seconds in game 2 and it goes to OT, 10 seconds Game 4 and Flames are up 3 -1. Flames were the better team for 2 periods on Sunday, and today, equal.in the second and the better team in the third. Doesn't win you anything but it's been a far more entertaining series to watch and the effort is there, but the horses are not.

Dallas got their point shot through in game 4 OT and 1 minute in to the third this game, where the Flames couldn't get that shot through, and that's the bottom line, no matter how much you want to point to dominance at times by Dallas.

Guys like Lindholm need to be more relevant. Mangipane has cooled considerably. Dube is not noticeable, just Bennett and Lucic on that line. Sure JG doesn't get a pass and him and Mono, while warming up are now already in desperation mode and are now trying to be too cute, and it's to their down fall. But JG is looking more dynamic the past 2 games but it's not enough.

All 4 lines are missing man assignments at the Dallas blueline which is leading to far too many odd.man rushes in 1 goal games. Certainly missing the Tkachuk factor to a point as well.

I think this goes to a Game 7. Given the way the Flames and the way Dallas has played, each game decided by a goal, you never know.

[CGY12]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

If we can gain a top line LW for nothing other than cap-space, it's a win.

So, assume we Trade Gaudreau to New Jersey for 7th overall and manage to draft Jamie Drysdale. He'd be instantly be on the fast track to being our best defence, and give us a young top four of:

Hanifin - Andersson
Valimaki - Drysdale

with this as our bottom two:

Giordano - ?

That's pretty dang solid - and yeah, perhaps Drysdale takes a year before jumping to the pros - but still, it sets the team up nicely.

Taylor replaces Gaudreau (Hall is a better all around 5 on 5 player), so I also think that is an improvement.

Bennett and Dube were also emerging in these playoffs - Bennett as a centre, that's huge. Re-work the forward group:

Tkachuk - Monahan - Lindholm --> that's pretty good 5 on 5, I'd argue.

Hall - Bennett - Dube --> this could be dynamite.

Mangiapne - Backlund - ? --> these two work well together

Lucic - Ryan - ? --> these two work well together

and lastly? Go out and pay Robin Lehner and Peter Laviolette.

That's the type of off-season I'd dream of. It re-shapes the culture pretty significantly and it sends a clear message to the team that you have to perform.

Throw away everything else though and just focus on Johnny out for assets, Hall in for cap. Our LW position improves (particularly in the playoffs), and we gain some prime assets from Johnny's departure. That's brilliant.


...barring Laviolette, Lehner and Hall all signing here though (dream upon dream upon dream)? Yeah, we're kinda boned.

The #1 problem in this recommended line up still exists. Monahan as our number 1 C. Gaudreau is far from perfect but imagine playing with a centre who lacks speed, can't gain the zone, has limited puck skills and doesn't have great hockey sense. Gaudreau needs to play with another player who can take some of the puck carrying responsibilities, otherwise its to easy to shut him down cause everything operates through him off the wing.

Not that it will happen and it certainly isn't easy but the Flames need a number 1 centre who can dictate pace and skate the puck up the ice. Till then they won't see any post season success. Monahan is a #2 centre at best.