2019/2020 Trade Speculation and Rumors 2.0

[Sylvanfan]

The thing with guys like Stone or Hall, and eventually Gaudreau is that you will sign them to contracts that are okay for the first half or slightly longer of the term, and be stuck with a bit of a problem on the back half of the deal.

The number of players who can outlast a heavy contact into their mid to late 30's as forwards is pretty small. Guys like Crosby, Kane, Malkin, and Ovechkin look to be doing so. But outside of that group it is hard to find guys producing the elite totals every single season after they hit 31-32 years old.

So if you go after a guy like Hall, you really do have to throw in all your chips to get while the getting's good and know you likely are going to be squirming in the last 2-3 years of that deal. As players get to about 32 and older, the consistency can become a challenge, and eventually by 35 the production tends to go down. So for me when a guy like Stone starts a new deal at 27 vs say 29 that's a significant difference at the back end of that contract.

[Oling_Roachinen]

I don't think you need a Jagr to find players that giving them a 7 year contract at 28 would have been fine.

Iginla was still putting up 30 goals as a 36 year old. He was a point per game while 33.

Hossa was a 30+-30+ guy. Zetterberg was still putting up near 70 points. Selanne, Alfredsson, etc. the current old guard of Marleau and Thornton.

There's not just the elite player but longevity players like Whitney, Recchi, Doan, Pavelski.

If the contract goes over 35, I would be far more worried, but up to 35 is hardly a bigger risk than any other 7 year contract in my opinion. It's not like it isn't factored into the contract bringing down the AAV.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

I don't think you need a Jagr to find players that giving them a 7 year contract at 28 would have been fine.

Iginla was still putting up 30 goals as a 36 year old. He was a point per game while 33.

Hossa was a 30+-30+ guy. Zetterberg was still putting up near 70 points. Selanne, Alfredsson, etc. the current old guard of Marleau and Thornton.

There's not just the elite player but longevity players like Whitney, Recchi, Doan, Pavelski.

If the contract goes over 35, I would be far more worried, but up to 35 is hardly a bigger risk than any other 7 year contract in my opinion. It's not like it isn't factored into the contract bringing down the AAV.

I don't think your comparisons are all that accurate though. Guys who signed super long contracts in previous CBA's are a bit different...they got the AAV down a lot at the front end and gave many more years of term. If you signed Hall to a 10 year deal for 70 million... with 6 of it paid out in the last 3 years yeah you're good till he's 35-36, than you likely could trade him to a team needing to meet the floor. But today, you need to make it 64 million over 7 years which ups the AAV of the contract a healthy amount.

Others like Doan, Recchi, Whitney did not sign elite level money deals after a certain age. They lasted, and could still play, but they were not eating up 10-15% of their teams cap space. Even Iginla, he still produced, but the last couple years of that 5 year deal he was fine till he was 33 years old, but at 34 and 35 the production started to slip, and after that his next contracts were not worth the same dollars at a time when the cap had gone up a lot.

[Oling_Roachinen]

I wasn't talking about contracts. I was talking about productivity. A lot of players, especially elite, don't have significant declines until they are 35 or older. And some players, regardless of age, just decline anyways (injury or other reasons).

Iginla at 28 was a 35-32-67 player, at 34 he was a 32-35-67 player. No one would have regretted giving him a 7 year contract at 28.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

I wasn't talking about contracts. I was talking about productivity. A lot of players, especially elite, don't have significant declines until they are 35 or older. And some players, regardless of age, just decline anyways (injury or other reasons).

Iginla at 28 was a 35-32-67 player, at 34 he was a 32-35-67 player. No one would have regretted giving him a 7 year contract at 28.

Yeah, but the overall game he played was different in those two seasons. The 28 year old Iginla was the top scorer on a Jennings winning team that won their Division and was 7th in the league.

In a cap world you need to balance production with cap hit.

In the case of Iginla, yeah you could have signed him for 5 years at 7 per year. Although you could argue from the team point, the follow up 5 years at 7 was less risk as the cap had increased a lot from it's original 39 million dollar setting. A 5 year deal back in 2005 for a guy his age...tough to say if it would have been for the same money as the 3 was or not.

The other thing is that this is getting to be 10 years ago where the league had a few more older players. Demographically the league is getting younger, and the older players are not as common as they once were. Elite guys still produce something, always have, and always will. But my point is that If I have to hand out a 7 year deal to a 27 year old, I'm a lot less concerned than if it's to a 29 year old. Nothing less, nothing more.

[Jason14h]

If you’re always worried about your cap situation 5-6 years in the future you are never winning a cup

How many of the “Cap He’ll” situations have ever actually came back to bite a team in the rear ?

So much changes in 5 years. When you have a chance to get Elite talent you go for it . Now the issue is paying guys who are average for 5 years big money ! And that seems to be the Flames MO.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

If you’re always worried about your cap situation 5-6 years in the future you are never winning a cup

How many of the “Cap He’ll” situations have ever actually came back to bite a team in the rear ?

So much changes in 5 years. When you have a chance to get Elite talent you go for it . Now the issue is paying guys who are average for 5 years big money ! And that seems to be the Flames MO.

The biggest issues with the cap-hell we did end up in during the feaster years (built in the Sutter years) is because we sank money into support players. Into untalented tangibles and high character guys - we didn’t prioritize talent, and overpaid for intangibles.

When you start prioritizing “intangibles” (like how Tree did with Brouwer and Hamonic), the reality seems to be that your team isn’t talented enough and you can’t see it. You’re getting bogged down in the “we should be better than this” when really, you shouldn’t be and you aren’t - so you’re hunting for this magic “it” factor that ties it all together, and that “it” factor doesn’t exist. Talent through the entire roster is what should always be the goal, and if that talent isn’t competitive enough then it’s the wrong talent.

[rogermexico]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

The biggest issues with the cap-hell we did end up in during the feaster years (built in the Sutter years) is because we sank money into support players. Into untalented tangibles and high character guys - we didn’t prioritize talent, and overpaid for intangibles.

When you start prioritizing “intangibles” (like how Tree did with Brouwer and Hamonic), the reality seems to be that your team isn’t talented enough and you can’t see it. You’re getting bogged down in the “we should be better than this” when really, you shouldn’t be and you aren’t - so you’re hunting for this magic “it” factor that ties it all together, and that “it” factor doesn’t exist. Talent through the entire roster is what should always be the goal, and if that talent isn’t competitive enough then it’s the wrong talent.

I think another big thing is to be able to recognize those intangibles when you do have them — the "it" factor — and reward and nurture those so that you aren't overpaying for them on the free market.

An old example would be Ference, and a more recent example would be Hathaway.

I know there's a fine line there — you don't want to end up paying a Lance Bouma too much. But when it comes to pricing "character," I think you're always in a better spot giving a guy like Hathaway a raise, as opposed to going out and spending a lot for intangibles in free agents.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

If you’re always worried about your cap situation 5-6 years in the future you are never winning a cup

How many of the “Cap He’ll” situations have ever actually came back to bite a team in the rear ?

So much changes in 5 years. When you have a chance to get Elite talent you go for it . Now the issue is paying guys who are average for 5 years big money ! And that seems to be the Flames MO.

And teams that win the Cup are usually in cap hell shortly thereafter. The price of success and having a great team.


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[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

This whole "half the board" thing is tiresome.
You have no way of knowing that. Yet you feel comfortable assigning views to 'half the board'
I suspect Stone would be loved here because he is a complete player who plays with tenacity and energy every shift.

Is everything black and white for you? Don't like it, there is the ignore button. Surely as a mod you know this.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Is everything black and white for you? Don't like it, there is the ignore button. Surely as a mod you know this.

You ever get tired of coming on here and soiling yourself, repeatedly?

[ShotDownInFlames12]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

This whole "half the board" thing is tiresome.
You have no way of knowing that. Yet you feel comfortable assigning views to 'half the board'
I suspect Stone would be loved here because he is a complete player who plays with tenacity and energy every shift.

Jesus. There’s no way you actually took that literally. It’s an expression to demonstrate that a lot of the fans would feel this way and you know that.

Half the board would agree with me.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by TOfan

You ever get tired of coming on here and soiling yourself, repeatedly?

Oh look, it is my 12 year old fan boy posting from mommy's basement again. Isn't it getting close to bed time?

[Poe969]

Is this thread about trading players or trading catty insults?

Hockey can't start soon enough.

[Monahammer]

Y'all need Jesus weed so you can chill out and realize that people calling you (not even real you, anonymous internet you) names on the computer doesn't hurt you at all.

[Cobra]

Everyone is so uptight about a team with Cap issues who is not that good.
Taylor Hall is not the savior.
With Assistant GM Trelving at the helm he will sign guys to good/great contracts but has no feel for talent in the FA market or draft.
Much like they did Arizona when he was there he will excel in mediocre players.
With him at the helm and no balls to try and change the culture I see no light at the end of the tunnel.
Honestly what is the FLAMES identity????
Not like any successful team that is good year after year.
Teams that play hard night after night.

Hopefully the Flames won't hit the links too soon as it is already hard enough to get tee times.

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by Cobra

Everyone is so uptight about a team with Cap issues who is not that good.
Taylor Hall is not the savior.
With Assistant GM Trelving at the helm he will sign guys to good/great contracts but has no feel for talent in the FA market or draft.
Much like they did Arizona when he was there he will excel in mediocre players.
With him at the helm and no balls to try and change the culture I see no light at the end of the tunnel.
Honestly what is the FLAMES identity????
Not like any successful team that is good year after year.
Teams that play hard night after night.

Hopefully the Flames won't hit the links too soon as it is already hard enough to get tee times.

I will agree with these statements if the Flames decisively lose to the Jets.

But lets give them a chance. If the top line actually performs, or if the Jets are out-coached, or if Hellebuyck stinks it up, the Flames might actually win.

As for team identity, I think that largely depends on the coach. I'd argue that in the past 20 years, the Flames' most distinct identities came under Sutter and Hartley.
Of course these were the only times the Flames got past the 1st round.

[Harry Lime]

I'll help.

Originally Posted by Cobra

Everyone is so uptight about a team with Cap issues who is not that good. What cap issues?
Taylor Hall is not the savior. No one said this.
With Assistant GM Trelving at the helm he will sign guys to good/great contracts but has no feel for talent in the FA market or draft. He's the assistant to the assistant.
Much like they did Arizona when he was there he will excel in mediocre players. Arizona has some good players.
With him at the helm and no balls to try and change the culture I see no light at the end of the tunnel. Is there a culture problem?
Honestly what is the FLAMES identity???? Don't let the light of Johnny and Monny blind you, the identity is Gio, Andersson, Tkachuk, Dube, Mangiapane and Bennett.
Not like any successful team that is good year after year. Boston and TB?
Teams that play hard night after night. Most of the Flames team does, and if they don't they end up in this thread.

Hopefully the Flames won't hit the links too soon as it is already hard enough to get tee times. Positivity!

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by ShotDownInFlames12

Jesus. There’s no way you actually took that literally. It’s an expression to demonstrate that a lot of the fans would feel this way and you know that.

Half the board would agree with me.

He has a specific ongoing habit of miss-representing the opinions on the board and over-stating how many people on this board feel a certain way.
That type of hyperbole doesn't make for good debate or discussion.
I think this is a great community and when people make comments that look down upon it - I find that irritating.

And no - I don't think a lot of fans would feel that way. He's a player that's been a fan favorite in every stop, including in junior.
So why on earth would a lot of Flames fans feel that way? And furthermore why say it?

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Cobra

Everyone is so uptight about a team with Cap issues who is not that good.
Taylor Hall is not the savior.
With Assistant GM Trelving at the helm he will sign guys to good/great contracts but has no feel for talent in the FA market or draft.
Much like they did Arizona when he was there he will excel in mediocre players.
With him at the helm and no balls to try and change the culture I see no light at the end of the tunnel.
Honestly what is the FLAMES identity????
Not like any successful team that is good year after year.
Teams that play hard night after night.

Hopefully the Flames won't hit the links too soon as it is already hard enough to get tee times.

Every one of your comments is negative and either completely untrue or highly exaggerated.

I'm not sure why anyone ever responds to your posts.

It's a useless exercise.