Minneapolis PD Suffocate Unarmed Black Man Who Later Dies in Hospital

[missdpuck]

Yes, I guess the friendship made the difference, Crown. People did stick things in Coy’s hair iirc. I will say the process of getting to the friendship was probably a bit annoying to him as I started poking his hair. Ah, we were crushing each other, I think. But my family was already set to move to Florida so who knows what might have happened.

He’s become quite a success as an actuary. That school and town are so great. We were so lucky. The Hurricane Carter incident happened in Paterson, which was nearby. The Bello guy in the Bob Dylan song was a classmate’s uncle. But that wasn’t our world at all.

Here’s some info about Mr. Carter for those too young or unfamiliar:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubin_Carter

Paterson was pretty notorious quite frightening.

[OMG!WTF!]

This is a bit of a dumb story and not in any way meant to minimize the real issues. But I went into a walk in clinic in Calgary once because I had something stuck in my eye. I was waiting in the room and these two African kids came up to me and started petting my hairy legs. It was really funny. They had probably not seen too many people with hair on their legs. Petting the hairy creature.



Ok, so might as well continue with the stupid anecdotes. I was talking to a couple high school kids two years ago and they said that lots of kids were assuming Black as their culture. The Indian kids called each other the n word. South east Asians and First Nations kids also identified that way. Even the African kids wanted to identify as African American, not just African. I don't know what that means but it does seem like a different world now.

[woob]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

This is a bit of a dumb story and not in any way meant to minimize the real issues. But I went into a walk in clinic in Calgary once because I had something stuck in my eye. I was waiting in the room and these two African kids came up to me and started petting my hairy legs. It was really funny. They had probably not seen too many people with hair on their legs. Petting the hairy creature.



Ok, so might as well continue with the stupid anecdotes. I was talking to a couple high school kids two years ago and they said that lots of kids were assuming Black as their culture. The Indian kids called each other the n word. South east Asians and First Nations kids also identified that way. Even the African kids wanted to identify as African American, not just African. I don't know what that means but it does seem like a different world now.

This seems like a good time for a "Thanks, grandpa" reply.

Just poking fun.

[agulati]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

Ok, so might as well continue with the stupid anecdotes. I was talking to a couple high school kids two years ago and they said that lots of kids were assuming Black as their culture. The Indian kids called each other the n word. South east Asians and First Nations kids also identified that way. Even the African kids wanted to identify as African American, not just African. I don't know what that means but it does seem like a different world now.

This has actually become a thing in high school culture it seems like. The N-word is fashionable to use by many minorities and different cultural elements are embraced (which itself might not be bad, but at times can border on unintentional/intentional racism) Even though no malice might be intended by most, the true hurt/depth of the word usage needs to be considered and it has to be turfed from the vernacular.

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by Acey

This part of it was so annoying. People used to stick coloured pencils in my hair for entertainment. To some degree I could understand this... they have just never seen afro textured hair and it's foreign to them. I didn't have it in my to stand up for myself.

The first girl I really liked in high school, her dad ended up sitting me down to tell me I couldn't see the daughter anymore because mom wasn't comfortable with it. He was as nice as he could possibly be about it and I respect him for that, but boy that one really hurt. I cried for a long time. That was 2006... not even that long ago. That's the only time in my life where there were thoughts in my head that I didn't want to be black anymore.

I'm probably going to be fighting with this later on. My wife is Vietnamese and we have 2 young daughters, and the discussion about them dating in high school has already come up. She flat out said she doesn't want them dating black guys, which threw me back quite a bit when it first came up. She isn't super racist, has black friends, blah blah blah, but there is some deep cultural #### in Asian families about dating/marrying anyone with dark skin. It irritates the hell out of me and if/when it comes down to it I will side with my daughters 100% on who they want to see and will fight that battle for them, but that's not for another 15 years or so, so hopefully I can undo some of those deep set prejudices

[missdpuck]

When I was growing up I was told I could date anyone except Italians lol.

[#-3]

Originally Posted by Crown Royal

One big problem I have is hearing someone say "you can be racist against ___" or "you can't be racist if you are ____" Racism is racism and it is always bad.

I've always thought this is the dumbest thing I've ever heard, and people are certainly revealing something very troubling about their world view when they say things like black people can't be racist, or that there are no institutions where black people have power, that's obviously not true. It's kind of a funny example but look at the rap world, white and asian people have clearly faced othering and institutional roadblocks when the choose to enter that world (it's not a dismissal of the much much bigger problems minorities face, but an example of how racist institutions can develop in any direction).

That said, I really don't think people conceptualization of racism is racism is far to simple, racism is rarely racism. There are just of ton of underlying biases, stereotypes and structural problems that go into all this. Sometimes you do get a Trump or a Steven Miller where there appears to be actual malicious intent. Usually it is just people lacking the time, opportunity or perspective to properly empathize, and SJWs treating them uncharitably when they are trying to engage the topic.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

I'm probably going to be fighting with this later on. My wife is Vietnamese and we have 2 young daughters, and the discussion about them dating in high school has already come up. She flat out said she doesn't want them dating black guys, which threw me back quite a bit when it first came up. She isn't super racist, has black friends, blah blah blah, but there is some deep cultural #### in Asian families about dating/marrying anyone with dark skin. It irritates the hell out of me and if/when it comes down to it I will side with my daughters 100% on who they want to see and will fight that battle for them, but that's not for another 15 years or so, so hopefully I can undo some of those deep set prejudices

I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything, but statements like this are exactly the problem people are trying to shed light on right now.

You're wife saying your daughters can't date Black guys is in fact 100% super racist.

Her reasoning behind it may be cultural, and she may have Black friends, but the fact of the matter is she thinks there are reasons why it's okay to be friends with Black people, but it's not acceptable for your kids to date Black people.

Defending something that is clearly racist by saying "XXX isn't racist" (whether it's yourself or someone else), is burying the problem, it's justifying a racist behavior and allowing it to continue.

If you add a "But", or "I just don't think", or some other qualifier to the statement "I'm not racist", then guess what, you are, at least a little.

Again, not to be a dick, but try adding it in your situation.
"My wife isn't racist, she just doesn't want our daughters to date Black kids"
It has a pretty different ring to it when it's stated so plainly.


We aren't all perfect, there are times I catch myself thinking or doing things that I know are the result of racial bias...ie being racist.

When it happens, if I/we want to get better, we can't think or say "I'm not racist", and list all the reasons why (Black friends etc).
We have to ask ourselves why we said, thought, or did that thing, and what can I do to make sure I don't do it again.


Good for you for deciding to stand up for your daughters if it ever comes up, but what we are seeing right now, is that more of us have to make a point of calling these things out before they come up.

One more time, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but your post stood out as a good example of the type of thing we need to recognize, now more than ever, and the language we use to absolve ourselves of what we know is true, mainly that we probably all need to do a better job of recognizing our own racist tendencies, and working on them.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

This is a bit of a dumb story and not in any way meant to minimize the real issues. But I went into a walk in clinic in Calgary once because I had something stuck in my eye. I was waiting in the room and these two African kids came up to me and started petting my hairy legs. It was really funny. They had probably not seen too many people with hair on their legs. Petting the hairy creature.

Not something you would want happening on a regular occasion, but a pretty funny thing to happen once for sure.

[Hockeyguy15]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything, but statements like this are exactly the problem people are trying to shed light on right now.

You're wife saying your daughters can't date Black guys is in fact 100% super racist.

Her reasoning behind it may be cultural, and she may have Black friends, but the fact of the matter is she thinks there are reasons why it's okay to be friends with Black people, but it's not acceptable for your kids to date Black people.

Defending something that is clearly racist by saying "XXX isn't racist" (whether it's yourself or someone else), is burying the problem, it's justifying a racist behavior and allowing it to continue.

If you add a "But", or "I just don't think", or some other qualifier to the statement "I'm not racist", then guess what, you are, at least a little.

Again, not to be a dick, but try adding it in your situation.
"My wife isn't racist, she just doesn't want our daughters to date Black kids"
It has a pretty different ring to it when it's stated so plainly.


We aren't all perfect, there are times I catch myself thinking or doing things that I know are the result of racial bias...ie being racist.

When it happens, if I/we want to get better, we can't think or say "I'm not racist", and list all the reasons why (Black friends etc).
We have to ask ourselves why we said, thought, or did that thing, and what can I do to make sure I don't do it again.


Good for you for deciding to stand up for your daughters if it ever comes up, but what we are seeing right now, is that more of us have to make a point of calling these things out before they come up.

One more time, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but your post stood out as a good example of the type of thing we need to recognize, now more than ever, and the language we use to absolve ourselves of what we know is true, mainly that we probably all need to do a better job of recognizing our own racist tendencies, and working on them.

I'm not a jerk, but...I find this funny.

Anyway now isn't the time to worry about hurt feelings or being labelled a jerk. We need to have tough conversations when stuff like this comes up now.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Crown Royal

I agree with Acey, this is 100% a good thing to post.

Racism is racism, it doesn't matter if someone is white, black, Asian, Latino, Aboriginal, Middle Eastern... etc. If you dislike someone and treat them poorly because of the color of your skin, you are racist.

One big problem I have is hearing someone say "you can be racist against ___" or "you can't be racist if you are ____" Racism is racism and it is always bad.

This is particularly an issue when people and media start discussing situations where the racism isn't between groups they traditionally associate racism with.

For example, if you're a scifi fan or just a nerd of some sort there's a good chance you might have heard of Liu Cixin and his Hugo-winning book "The Three-body Problem". (First part of 'Remembrance of Earth's Past' trilogy.)

What you're probably not aware of is that Liu Cixin is quite openly racist, to the point of supporting what are, effectively, concentration camps. It's just that he's racist towards uighurs, who to a casual western observer look like just a slightly different variety of "Asian".

If western writer said things like "well what else is the government going to do to them, they've caused so much trouble" and talk about Black people, that writer would never be on a list promoting "books by people of color".

I mean, I don't support boycotting writers because they're bad people (I support not reading Three-Body Problem because it's a terrible book), but I do think that if your ultimate goal is to fight racism, you probably shouldn't be recommending one of the more openly racist writers in his genre.

I also think a lot of the time the western media really struggles to see racism even when it's so damned obvious. There are so many cases where I feel like whacking a reporter on the head for not understanding why group A is hostile towards group B in a foreign country, or call something "tribal conflict" when the "tribes" are millions of people.... Just makes me want to scream "it's racism!" in their ear.

...of course there's a rabbit hole here, where I could start pointing out how people not seeing racism between for example two "Asian" groups perfectly underlines how our concept of "race" is almost completely arbitrary, and has no basis in for example genetics.

I mean, how is Meghan Markle "black"?

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by Itse

I mean, how is Meghan Markle "black"?

You're not black if your mother is black?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Itse

-snip-
...of course there's a rabbit hole here, where I could start pointing out how people not seeing racism between for example two "Asian" groups perfectly underlines how our concept of "race" is almost completely arbitrary, and has no basis in for example genetics.

I mean, how is Meghan Markle "black"?

That's not entirely true. Skin tone is controlled by genes.

In the United States, for example, the term race generally refers to a group of people who have in common some visible physical traits, such as skin colour, hair texture, facial features, and eye formation. Such distinctive features are associated with large, geographically separated populations, and these continental aggregates are also designated as races, as the “African race,” the “European race,” and the “Asian race.” Many people think of race as reflective of any visible physical (phenotypic) variations among human groups, regardless of the cultural context and even in the absence of fixed racial categories.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/race-human

Human skin color can vary from almost translucent to almost black. This range of colors comes from the amount and type of a pigment called melanin found in the skin.


There are two types of melanin--eumelanin and pheomelanin. In general, the more eumelanin in your skin, the darker your skin will be. People who make more pheomelanin than eumelanin tend to have lighter skin with freckles.
Like many other traits, the amount and kind of pigment in your skin is controlled by genes. The version you have of each of these genes work together to create the final product -- your skin color.

https://genetics.thetech.org/ask/ask288


Now, the definition of race can vary, as explained in the first link. But genes do control skin tone and other appearances, and some definitions of race are based on that. Despite those definitions being rather arbitrary.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by missdpuck

When I was growing up I was told I could date anyone except Italians lol.

Ha ha ha. I'm half Italian and I remember being called a wop a lot in my youth.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

That's not entirely true. Skin tone is controlled by genes.



https://www.britannica.com/topic/race-human



https://genetics.thetech.org/ask/ask288


Now, the definition of race can vary, as explained in the first link. But genes do control skin tone and other appearances, and some definitions of race are based on that. Despite those definitions being rather arbitrary.

I think the fact that the definition of "race" changes and the blurred lines between "races" shows that the idea isn't scientific, but rather social.

The genetic factors are of course based in science, but "race" IMO, is a socially contrived division.

[afc wimbledon]

Race has nothing to do with skin colour historically, if you looked white as snow but had a black mother or father your arse was on the back of the bus in the states or heading to the showers in 1940's Germany

[Fuzz]

I can see how ethnicity is useful in some forms, such as medical diagnosis. And skin tone can be useful as a descriptor, such as describing a suspect, or even if you are meeting someone. Brown hair, light skin, 5'10, that type of thing. But perhaps a universal skin tone system should be devised, where it is recorded on a non-biased scale, a fact like height or weight. This could assist in things like facial recognition where systems fail because they are trained on white faces. Oh, your a C7? Well we'll use the AI trained on C7 tones then.

[missdpuck]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Ha ha ha. I'm half Italian and I remember being called a wop a lot in my youth.

Greaseball! It had a lot to do with where I grew up, too. Italians were perceived as low-level gangsters or Mafia types.

I just looked at the Sopranos filming locations site and I recognized most of the NJ ones. Montclair, Clifton, North Caldwell. My uncle’s house was a few blocks from the Tony Soprano house at 14 Aspen, North Caldwell lol.

When I checked out my hometown website I noticed that they still have an Italian mayor (6 terms) , city clerk, etc.

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Good for you for deciding to stand up for your daughters if it ever comes up, but what we are seeing right now, is that more of us have to make a point of calling these things out before they come up.

One more time, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but your post stood out as a good example of the type of thing we need to recognize, now more than ever, and the language we use to absolve ourselves of what we know is true, mainly that we probably all need to do a better job of recognizing our own racist tendencies, and working on them.

I should have phrased it as "not outwardly racist", I know her views are textbook racist but racism also isn't binary, it's a wide spectrum. I also can't blame her, she grew up in a country where skin color is a big deal, and skin care whitening products are a multi-billion dollar industry. She not against our daughters marrying a black guy because of hate, she's against it because she's afraid of her grand-children being outcasts in her home town.

And this isn't an issue we stay silent about either, I make her confront those views whenever I can, and the recent protests have been a good opportunity to explain to her just how bad things have been and still are for minorities in North America. What I was trying to get at in my original post is that everyone likely has someone in their family or friend group with some kind of racist views that they expose, and it does no one any good to stay silent about it. Even if I can't completely undo the 3 decades of racial bias that was instilled with my wife, I can make sure that bias ends with her and that my daughters won't care about the color of someone's skin when they get older

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Weitz

You're not black if your mother is black?

Meghan Markle is just as much "black" as she is "white", just objectively speaking.

You can not call Meghan Markle "black" without implicitly saying that "blacks" are the ones that are "the other" and whites are the ones that are "normal".

There's also the issue that tons of people needed to be told she's "black" despite her picture being plastered everywhere, because they couldn't tell from the pictures.

I couldn't tell from her pictures. I was totally taken by surprise when I heard it's a thing, and this was after being unwillingly bombarded with the royal wedding. She's only "black" because we say so. It's a cultural decision and arbitrary.

The real problem of course is that that logic is fundamentally racist. It's literally the whole corner stone of racism, that idea of what races are and how they function. Thinking that way doesn't mean you're a racist in the traditional sense, but the idea is just basically the definition of racism.


It's also actually Nazi logic. I don't mean to say "you're racist", I really don't. I know most people think like that. I just think it's sad and harmful, and propagating an idea that helps white supremacists. Literal Nazi's used this logic to shun people who had "not Aryan" blood in them. They tried to track people's heritage, especially Jewishness, and if you were part Jew, you were a Jew. (Except of course if you had the right kind of social capital, but let's not go into inconsistencies of Nazi politics, because that's a whole different rabbit hole.)

This logic is also the underpinning of the white supremacist "replacement theory", or the idea that the "white race" will disappear from country X if "something isn't done about it". Now you might laugh about it, but replacement theory is a big recruiting tool for the far right.

If you count any interracial person as "not white" and allow "non white" people in the country to intermingle with "whites", then yes, logically it follows that over time "whites" will become a minority and eventually completely disappear, because "not whites" can only create more "not whites", and then those "not whites" will create even more "not whites" and so on.

Then if you count "whites" as "us", which is what most "white" people instinctively do, even if you have nothing against "them" the idea of there no longer being an "us" can feel very uncomfortable. Suddenly you start understanding what the fascists are worried about. "They just want to keep a country for people like us, now I get it... I mean, it is a fair thing to ask isn't it?"

Since most people instinctively do think like this, the counterargument to "replacement theory" is typically "the numbers are wrong, it's not a real thing", and then having a statistical argument about it, instead of just saying "why should it matter if the natural process of people freely bonking each other leads to an evolution where the average skin tone in this geographical area is a bit more latte than it is now? We'll still all be just as much "us" as we are now. Skin color doesn't define us."

I genuinely think it's harmful that Black people in America themselves propagate this idea that mixed heritage people are "black". If only two white people can create more white people, that means that interracial mixing is always inherently bad for the number of white people in the future, and you don't want to be in the minority when people start thinking like that.

If only two white people can have white babies, and white babies are "us", then no your daughter can't marry one of "them". Not because you think "they" are bad, it's just that your grandchildren wouldn't then be "us".

(Obviously this isn't the only reason people are against interracial marriage.)

There is also not really such a thing as "black". There is no one ethnic group that fits any working definition of "black". There is no objective standard for it. Different people will use different definitions, and even the same people will use the word very inconsistently without realizing it. "White" is equally completely arbitrary, and has changed many times over time. The Polish and the Irish famously weren't considered to be "of the same race" than "whites" not that far back, even though they happen to be some of the palest people in the world. There have been times and places where Egyptians on the other hand were considered "white". Why are Italians or Greeks "white", but the roma are not?

Anyway, that was a rabbit hole, sorry.