Unions - Your opinion

[Flames in 07]

The funny thing about unions is that in their absense, employees would have new ones ripped into them, and we could all live through the industrial revolution again, on the other hand they are generally self serving and detract from overall objectives and performance.

I'd look around, Unions tend to fester us vs. them mentality, people can get lazy and selfish and more political.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by rubecube

LOL. Yeah, I was going to say Labs and Terriers.

Well, 'everybody knows' that terriers are better.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Well, 'everybody knows' that terriers are better.

Now we're at odds more than I thought.

EDIT: Actually I'm wrong again. It should be like comparing Retrievers to Terriers.

[GreenTeaFrapp]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

You must not work for a union then I assume.

I've worked in a union in the past and my wife is currently in a union.

[fredr123]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Unions are there for a reason....to protect the employees. The problem with most unions is that they want everyone to be equal. The reality is....they are not. My biggest problem with unions (and I am in one) is that the unproductive and lazy people get paid the same as the productive and hard working people. There needs to be a mechanizam that allows hard working and productive workers to be not only recognized but also rewarded for their hard work.

Don't let your coworkers read this...

Wait a sec... are you posting from work right now? Are you in the unproductive lazy category or the productive and hard working category?

[Devils'Advocate]

I'm ambivelant about unions. I do belong to a union, and I know that if I didn't have a good union I wouldn't have the pay and benefits that I have now. On the other hand, I've had so many run-ins with my own union that they **** me off.

I work in systems for the federal government. Until 2003 I was a programmer and ever since I've been supervising programmers. And I can't get rid of the slackers. I've had this guy that reads the newspaper all day. I had another guy that would disappear for hours at a time. I had another guy that played games on his computer all day. I give these guys lousy performance appraisals.. one guy threw it back in my face and said "Watcha gonna do? Fire me? Ha!" And it's true... the union will go to the wall to protect the slacker a-holes, but won't lift a finger to help me get the work done. I had one ass-wipe that purposefully broke our security regulations and I had the proof. Yet the director said that it would take a full year of my time in front of tribunals, of paperwork, of testimony in front of lawyers to get rid of this guy, so it just wasn't cost effective. So yes, unions **** me off. Yet I would never leave this job BECAUSE of my union.

My mother worked for MT&T (now Aliant Telecom) for 18 years. Two years from a partial pension, they laid her off. They laid off everyone that was close to getting their pension and kept the young low-paid people. Everyone knew that the company was no longer making a profit, so cuts were coming - but they just gutted the non-union workers with massive layoffs while on the other hand the union workers they reduced through attrition.

I've seen far too many good people work very, very hard just get slapped down. Without a union to back you up, employers have almost carte blanche. I once worked in a non-unionized private sector job where the most competent project leader was fired "for not being a team player" because she wouldn't follow managements demand to force one of her programmers to work extra hours when she knew this programmer had a very ill wife that needed taking care of. I've witnessed my fair share of the good guy finishing last because they had nobody backing them up against the whims of the powerful execs.


-=-=-=-=-

All that to say that I think unions are still necessary because employers still abuse their power to treat good people badly. I just think that unions are still stuck in the 1920s and think of the employer as the enemy and will do anything in their power to cause the company to be more inefficient. I find myself butting heads more with the union more than I do upper management. And it just shouldn't be that way. But I don't know how to fix it.

[maverickeastwood]

I've worked for both union and non union oerations and I have to say that non union has treated their people the best. The unionized operations, though, were larger than the non union operations. BC is a different climate than it is here though. In AB, there is a short supply of skilled labor and a lot of companies do what they can to retain them. And if you get mad enough, you quit and find something else.

The only thing that a union can do for you is help you and your fellow co workers maintain some level of job security. I've seen many union jobs pay less than non union. That seniority list is also a very lousy thing to contend with when you first start in a union. In BC for example, some forestry operations have 45-50 yr old trades apprentices due to this list. I realize this is AB and things may be a bit different here, economic wise, but union rules are union rules and they suck

[mykalberta]

Unions are usefull in some professions, required by some, and despised by many.

NHL Players Union - Sorry, no workforce deserves 50% of REVENUES, your argument is garbage

Nurses/Doctor/Teachers etc Union - required to keep the government in step, problem is a few (NURSES) have very militant unions and the number 1 reason why we need public funded private medical facilities.

Airline Unions (not pilots) - Your job can easily be replaced by someone who has graduated grade 12, some dont even need high school diploma - I refuse to apologize for not believing that people who throw bags, deserve anything more than 35K/year.

Airline Unions (pilots) - While the popular term for pilots is to say its so costly to become a pilot and takes so long. Not sure about Canada, but in the US, most of the higher end experienced pilots are former military, no cost - I would say you are worth what you are likely getting paid, I am sorry thought, you dont deserve what top airline managers make.

MYK

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by GreenTeaFrapp

I've worked in a union in the past and my wife is currently in a union.

Well....not sure how it works in private organizations...but in the government.....past work means nothing.....a compatition is posted and workers apply. The workers go to interviews and depending on how they do in the interview determines if they get the promotion.....in almost all cases, it is not based on past work performance as the union will not have it. All workers must be treated equal.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

I work in systems for the federal government. Until 2003 I was a programmer and ever since I've been supervising programmers. And I can't get rid of the slackers. I've had this guy that reads the newspaper all day. I had another guy that would disappear for hours at a time. I had another guy that played games on his computer all day. I give these guys lousy performance appraisals.. one guy threw it back in my face and said "Watcha gonna do? Fire me? Ha!" And it's true... the union will go to the wall to protect the slacker a-holes, but won't lift a finger to help me get the work done. I had one ass-wipe that purposefully broke our security regulations and I had the proof. Yet the director said that it would take a full year of my time in front of tribunals, of paperwork, of testimony in front of lawyers to get rid of this guy, so it just wasn't cost effective. So yes, unions **** me off. Yet I would never leave this job BECAUSE of my union.

You do work for the government

[bluejays]

My dad's an absolute union supporter and it did him a ton when he was wrongfully dismissed. Myself, when I lost my job a few years back, the damn union didn't do a thing about it and actually convinced me to under an emotional state to resign. Because of that, I lost money, and I couldn't be represented to get help to get my job back. What do you expect when you're dealing with Teamsters? Such a corrupt organization from A-Z.

Unions are good when they don't run the place, but are there when people need them...it's that simple. Aside from that, they're a pain in the ass from a management standpoint, and money gougers from employees points-of-views.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

-=-=-=-=-

All that to say that I think unions are still necessary because employers still abuse their power to treat good people badly. I just think that unions are still stuck in the 1920s and think of the employer as the enemy and will do anything in their power to cause the company to be more inefficient. I find myself butting heads more with the union more than I do upper management. And it just shouldn't be that way. But I don't know how to fix it.

You've got some good thoughts, maybe get involved in the union and try for some change.

[GreenTeaFrapp]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Well....not sure how it works in private organizations...but in the government.....past work means nothing.....a compatition is posted and workers apply. The workers go to interviews and depending on how they do in the interview determines if they get the promotion.....in almost all cases, it is not based on past work performance as the union will not have it. All workers must be treated equal.

There are subjective criteria for these competitions though. And they can ask for a letter of recommendation.

The big benefit for getting a good reputation in the government is acting positions. Since the competitions can take so long, you can get put into an acting position for a long time. And then you've got experience at that level which will factor into the competitions.

[Looger]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

You've got some good thoughts, maybe get involved in the union and try for some change.

here it is, maybe the big #1 fundamental problem with unions.

i've known many union workers to not get involved with the union at all (except MAYBE briefly during their elections), and then they wonder when something bad happens, 'where's my union???'

unions require participation by the workers, that is what makes them a union.

these days the union leaders are mad with power because the workers are generally, not involved at all.

the elections are much like the ones in our political systems - rigged isn't the correct term but people are presented with limited choices and their decisions dependent upon skewed perspectives.

what a sick joke.

[Looger]

Originally Posted by fleury

<snip>What do you expect when you're dealing with Teamsters? Such a corrupt organization from A-Z.<snip>

my mom worked for an outfit where she could choose to join the teamsters or not, as office staff.

the rep would always bug her aboot it when he dropped in, in a mostly good-natured way i suppose.

she eventually tired of this and told him that as soon as they returned her father's pension money that they stole she'd consider it.

he turned white and left, never to enter her office again.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by GreenTeaFrapp

There are subjective criteria for these competitions though. And they can ask for a letter of recommendation.

The big benefit for getting a good reputation in the government is acting positions. Since the competitions can take so long, you can get put into an acting position for a long time. And then you've got experience at that level which will factor into the competitions.

I know how it works.....and it is not as easy as you think it is. I have seen many times where people have been in acting positions only to not get the job because they did not do well in the competition. Many times.

[Devils'Advocate]

Actually, past work now means everything in most federal government competitions. The interview questions have been overhauled. Where there used to be "How WOULD you handle situation X" it's been changed to "How DID you handle situation X". And they will call around to see if you told the truth about the situation. At my department, CS-4 (Computing Scientists level 4) competitions are now all based on track record. And every competition I have ever competed in or helped run has had reference checks. Now, did it help me that I am good at interviews? Absolutely. But that got me ahead in private industry as well.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Actually, past work now means everything in most federal government competitions. The interview questions have been overhauled. Where there used to be "How WOULD you handle situation X" it's been changed to "How DID you handle situation X". And they will call around to see if you told the truth about the situation. At my department, CS-4 (Computing Scientists level 4) competitions are now all based on track record. And every competition I have ever competed in or helped run has had reference checks. Now, did it help me that I am good at interviews? Absolutely. But that got me ahead in private industry as well.

Behavioural descriptive questions mean jack ****. You could have been the minister of your department but if one has a difficult time verbally communicating these facts in the interview.....it is all for nothing. That is the point....instead of looking at actual work history....such as a resume or previous performance reviews....it ALL depends on the answers you give in the interview and how well your previous supervisors can connect the two.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

You do work for the government

You would be surprised how few of these slackers I come across. I know 1 in 10 is still way, way too high... if this was in a non-unionized shop the lazy SOBs would be out on the street ASAP. The problem is that if you have 1 guy who isn't pulling his weight and have 9 others trying to make up for the slacker, everyone else starts asking why they are bustin' their ass while this guy plays Bejewelled. It just takes one bad apple.

But I do remember once when I was in private industry where this 50 year old guy was subtly coming on to a 22 year old just out of university. The advances were obviously not welcomed and the girl came to me. I was in no position with this company to hire/fire people, but I was high enough up to make recommendations. First, the guy wasn't doing the work assigned to him, but rather was hanging around the girls office trying to "help" her with her work. Secondly, after repeated warnings, he was still harassing her. Lastly, the girls productivity was diminished because of this letch bothering her all the time. So I went to management and said that I had never seen a better case of a guy deserving to be fired. Management told me that they needed this guy. To maintain their contract with the client they needed to ensure that my team had at least 35 years of combined experience in this particular piece of software that we were using; without his 7 years we'd be down to 28. Management found a novel solution. They fired the girl for diminished productivity, lost her 0 years of experience and kept the guy with 7 years.

It was sh*t like that that made me run back to working for the government. Come to think of it, that's probably the ONLY thing that would get you fired in the government. But I would prefer to deal with the 1 in 10 slackers rather than seeing good people fired for no good reason.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Behavioural descriptive questions mean jack ****. You could have been the minister of your department but if one has a difficult time verbally communicating these facts in the interview.....it is all for nothing. That is the point....instead of looking at actual work history....such as a resume or previous performance reviews....it ALL depends on the answers you give in the interview and how well your previous supervisors can connect the two.

It always depends on your supervisors ability - unionized or non-unionized, public or private sector. I had a job opportunity blown because a former supervisor had forgotten most details of the work I had done when the company I applied to called for a reference check.

I do agree that past performance reviews SHOULD be taken into consideration in competitions. I often feel that I'm just wasting my time filling them out; the good employees know who they are and the jackoffs know who they are as well. Nobody will see them.

You may say that jobs shouldn't be decided on the basis of interview skills, and I'd agree with you; but they make or break people in all sectors.