Unions - Your opinion

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by flamingchina

I was working for a company that Telus took over back during the whole dot com thing, and we all absolutely hated working with the union employees.
Same thing when I started working for the CHR. (although in that place, even the non-union employees are problems)
The whole, get enough people to sign cards and you're unionized thing kinda bugs me, as it leaves a whole lot more room for pressuring people into it, as well as the not being able to get yourself out of the union (really, you still have to pay dues even if you leave, and are often then discriminated against.)

Yep and there isn't an option to sign a card saying "No Union" in retaliation.

[Bobblehead]

When things like this happen, Unions are bad.

Unions can be beneficial in standing up for worker issues, but in many current circumstances the unions abuse their power.

I see union dues as another level of tax - you are paying a level of elected officials to represent you.

There is a reason that in the economic analysis of unions the demand/supply curves vs the business curves of the unions never cross (although I'd need to dig into my 3rd year Labour Econ notes to remember the specifics)

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by FireFly

Well, that's what I'm saying. BC is an exception because residents are generally very pro-union and will support their unions in anything. I can tell you for certain that almost every Telus employee in BC walked off the job while more than half of Alberta employees were on the job. What does that say? Are people that pro-union everywhere else? Certainly not. Most people would realize there are good union causes and bad union causes, looking into the issues instead of just asking which way they should vote.

That and the way the Telus union was allowed to vote on the CBA proposals was ludicrous.

[Looger]

Originally Posted by FireFly

Well, that's what I'm saying. BC is an exception because residents are generally very pro-union and will support their unions in anything. I can tell you for certain that almost every Telus employee in BC walked off the job while more than half of Alberta employees were on the job. What does that say? Are people that pro-union everywhere else? Certainly not. Most people would realize there are good union causes and bad union causes, looking into the issues instead of just asking which way they should vote.

none of this 'makes bc an exception'.

there is still a supply and demand economy, the same basic issues apply.

production, costs, profit, overhead, shipping, markets, etc.

you can't say that geopolitical zone A is exempt from the issues just because they drink mroe of the union kool-aid than geopolitical zone B, it soes not wash, and that is not what i was saying.

[SeeGeeWhy]

They can serve a purpose, but are generally not applicable to the business world in North America today.

My wife read an article describing that Ford only saves 5% of their costs when they shut down a plant because of the way they set up their union... that's brutal.

I think that if they are going to be formed now-a-days, the agreement has to be well thought out and mutually benefitial to both the union and the interests of the corporation.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Looger

none of this 'makes bc an exception'.

there is still a supply and demand economy, the same basic issues apply.

production, costs, profit, overhead, shipping, markets, etc.

you can't say that geopolitical zone A is exempt from the issues just because they drink mroe of the union kool-aid than geopolitical zone B, it soes not wash, and that is not what i was saying.

That's not what I'm saying either. I know what you're saying, you're talking about economic repercussions of having too many unionized companies driving up wages etc. What I am saying is that unions are needed in certain areas. Unions as a whole don't work in BC because they're used to extreme, which is why you get the issues you're talking about. Unions used properly (to ensure fair compensation and decent working conditions ONLY, not to make sure people can sit on CP all day and get paid $20/hour.) do NOT cause these issues. Has having unions hurt the economy in Alberta? No. What makes BC different?

[Flame Of Liberty]

Union members dont realize that if they are hurting the business, at the end of the day they are hurting themselves.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Unions are there for a reason....to protect the employees. The problem with most unions is that they want everyone to be equal. The reality is....they are not. My biggest problem with unions (and I am in one) is that the unproductive and lazy people get paid the same as the productive and hard working people. There needs to be a mechanizam that allows hard working and productive workers to be not only recognized but also rewarded for their hard work.

[Looger]

Originally Posted by FireFly

That's not what I'm saying either. I know what you're saying, you're talking about economic repercussions of having too many unionized companies driving up wages etc. What I am saying is that unions are needed in certain areas. Unions as a whole don't work in BC because they're used to extreme, which is why you get the issues you're talking about. Unions used properly (to ensure fair compensation and decent working conditions ONLY, not to make sure people can sit on CP all day and get paid $20/hour.) do NOT cause these issues. Has having unions hurt the economy in Alberta? No. What makes BC different?

if you read my first post all i really said was that blind support for unions regardless of the issue is a bad idea, i think we fundamentally agree here.

the main difference with bc is that more people support the unions come hell or high water, which produces strange offshoot effects like the liberals being voted in largely on a union-busting platform (!)...

the economy here is far more entrepeneurial, you can run a four-man oil-based service business but the investment required even to get a small logging operation going when compared to the profit is far more marginal.

lots of bc's economy depends on things like the shipping in vancouver, tourism, so environmental issues and union money are obviously going to make more of an impact.

plus there's lots of people that are lazy pot smokers and want to make $27 an hour for a brain-dead job they can doze through.

i know production workers that flirt with six figures from overtime.

EDIT: i don't blame the unions, i blame the people that give them a blank cheque.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

When things like this happen, Unions are bad.

More than 97 per cent of workers voted against management's final offer Tuesday in a nailbiting vote that many feared would seal the town's fate.

Ha ha. 97%, yeah that's a real nailbiter. That's quite a story though. What a bunch of dummies. $22.48 an hour plus benefits sounds pretty good for a slaughterhouse gig. I mean no offense, but what kind of qualifications do you need to work in a slaughterhouse? Grade 6 and your own rubber boots?

If you guys want to gripe about a union, go hang out at a Canada Post depot for a few hours. Flagrant, unhidden sleeping. Not slacking off, not reading the paper but full on REM sleeping. Sleeping in the trucks, on cardboard boxes, at the desks. And some of those posties have routes that take them 4 hours and they get paid for 8.

[Looger]

RougeUnderoos, i have only one question for you...

are they hiring???

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Looger

RougeUnderoos, i have only one question for you...

are they hiring???

As a matter of fact...

One guy described his postie route to me like this: "It's a part time job for 50 grand a year".

[Dodsdomd]

Originally Posted by Kobatuzzied

Bingo.
I work in a union. I guess thats why I don't care if I'm caught on CP 6 hours a day. Just maintaining the status quo around here.

Don't think Ir. Le. doesn't notice!

[Calgaryborn]

It is easy to point to excesses within unionized industry. One could
assume from this thread that non-union employees all have a model
work ethic. Any business that is large will have problems with employees
because of the lack of supervision. This is especially true now with
many large companies eliminating most of their middle management as
a cost savings measure.

Someone mentioned the notion earlier in this thread that organized
unions has become like another level of government one has to deal with.
That is an apt description of many long established unions. They've
lost touch with the workers they are suppose to represent and instead
manage them as a commodity.

Having said that I do see an important future for unions. In my life time
our society has gone from a family with one income being able to but
the family home, have yearly vacations, save for retirement, ect. Today
it generally takes two incomes to accomplish the same goals. From a 40
hour work week(a bench mark established by unions in the twentieth
century) were seeing a persons work week expanding to 50 or 60 hours
in many work sectors. Shift work and split shifts are making it a lot harder to have functional families or contribute to the community. With a shrinking
work force demands on the working man/women will increase. Taxes will
logically have to increase to make up the short fall in the work force. The
favorable work conditions many non-union workers enjoy came about because of Union activity in the early part of the last century. One day soon we are going to need organized unions to step in and curb the erosion that has been occurring in the last thirty years. I'm not sure if the current established unions will be up to this task. We might see new grass roots organizations grab the ball that the established unions have dropped.

[GreenTeaFrapp]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

There needs to be a mechanizam that allows hard working and productive workers to be not only recognized but also rewarded for their hard work.

It's called a promotion.

[Sample00]

Was recently in WEM and was walking past the casino.
I see that the union there is on strike, I dont know which union.
but they were video taping patrons entering the casino and advising them taht they would be putting their picture on some sort of a website. cant recall which one.
isnt there something about the FOIP thing with regards to doing that kinda thing?
to add, I would think in this day and age, most employers treat their employees fairly and pay them decent wages, am I wrong?

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I mean no offense, but what kind of qualifications do you need to work in a slaughterhouse?

I worked in a couple meat plants for about 10 years and unless I was getting paid that much, I highly doubt I would go back. Doesn't seem that far out of line to me since you can earn almost $20 an hour right now working at Cargill

[GreenTeaFrapp]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

More than 97 per cent of workers voted against management's final offer Tuesday in a nailbiting vote that many feared would seal the town's fate.

Ha ha. 97%, yeah that's a real nailbiter. That's quite a story though. What a bunch of dummies. $22.48 an hour plus benefits sounds pretty good for a slaughterhouse gig. I mean no offense, but what kind of qualifications do you need to work in a slaughterhouse? Grade 6 and your own rubber boots?

Would you want to work in a slaughterhouse for the rest of your life @22.48 /hr? It might not be a job requiring a lot of education, it isn't exactly the most pleasant place to work.

The company said it is considering moving operations to Red Deer, Alta.

Now I might be misreading things here but with the Alberta boom going on right now, wouldn't they have to pay a pretty penny to get people when they're competing with the oil companies for workers?

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by GreenTeaFrapp

It's called a promotion.

You must not work for a union then I assume.

[Looger]

my experience with unions is that quite often they get rid of lazy or stupid workers by promotion, it is totally insane.