[PGT] Oilers 8 Flames 3 everything is fine

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

The argument with Lucic compared to Neal was that at least if Lucic isn't scoring, he can contribute in other ways, whereas Neal can't.

Well, this year Neal is scoring and Lucic isn't bringing anything at all, so it's been quite a downgrade.

Unfortunately the Flames got the Oiler version of Lucic and the Oilers got the Vegas version of Neal and the Flames never got a good version of either player and now they are stuck with him.

Is he hurt or is he just the same player he's been for 3 years now? Or has he been hurt for the last 3 years and this trade is even worse than it appears?

My money is on him just being a sucky hockey player now.

Well, the March "ilness" will be just around the corner then.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Johnny has skills. If “the book is out on him”, why isn’t the book “out” on guys like Patrick Kane and Mitch Marner? Is Johnny just too stupid to think of things on his own?

Johnny has showed very little ability to adapt his game.

Kane works hard to be the best. Johnny? Seems like he doesn't.

I'm not gonna call him stupid but its pretty clear that Gaudreau is no Kane and I don't think any amount of coaching is going to change that. It's on the player to keep improving as his career goes on and Gaudreau isn't showing us that this year. As much as you want it to be coaching I think the blame lies squarely on Gaudreau's shoulders on this one.

Frankly based on the way Johnny plays I wonder if he even listens to the coaches. They aren't telling him to buttonhook at the blue line and give the puck up. They aren't telling him to bail out on every puck battle.

The coach doesn't have a controller where he can move the players around. Once the players hit the ice their play is it up to them.

Sorry but blaming Ward for Gaudreau's off year is scapegoating IMO.

All that said I'd be ecstatic to get a coaching upgrade. I just don't think it'll affect Gaudreau's poor play at all. Ward and Peters have not been coaching Johnny to play careless with puck, pass the puck into the opposition's skates and shy away from every puck battle in every area of the ice. That's not a coaching issue, that's a Johnny issue.

[SportsJunky]

I’ve been in the car much of the day today listening to the radio. As ####ty as it was to watch Edmonton beat Calgary on Saturday, I’m glad to hear how excited the fans and the media are with the reemergence of the Battle of Alberta. It’s all anyone wants to talk about. It led off every single show on NHL Radio. That’s the type of game/series that so many have been waiting for. People love it.

[Aarongavey]

The sooner the doctors confirm that Lucic is allergic to hockey equipment the better for everyone involved. That would be his greatest contribution he could make to the Flames organization.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Frank MetaMusil

The bottom line is this doesn't need to be a fault finding exercise. The Flames need different players AND an upgraded coach. The team needs the GM to make the correct moves.

Coaching is the most significant upgrade they can make without having to trade anyone. Treliving has caused this build of the Flames to have questions marks for far longer than it should. Get the elite coach and start trimming your roster from there.

Giving the benefit of the doubt to Gulutzan and Peters is dumb, they've won precisely nothing in the NHL playoffs.

I agree with this. The Flames need to make some changes to the lineup, but they also need a solid coach.

And IMO, you get the coach first, not only because it is the easiest move, but also because you want to see which players will excel under that coach. If you do it in reverse, you can end up acquiring players that don't fit the new coach's system, and you're chasing your tail again.

Get your man (please be Gallant), establish the identity and systems that you want, and then start rebuilding the roster from there.

[Enoch Root]

I agree with Bingo - Lucic's game has fallen off a cliff in the last handful of games. For whatever reason.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Johnny has showed very little ability to adapt his game.

Kane works hard to be the best. Johnny? Seems like he doesn't.

I'm not gonna call him stupid but its pretty clear that Gaudreau is no Kane and I don't think any amount of coaching is going to change that. It's on the player to keep improving as his career goes on and Gaudreau isn't showing us that this year. As much as you want it to be coaching I think the blame lies squarely on Gaudreau's shoulders on this one.

Frankly based on the way Johnny plays I wonder if he even listens to the coaches. They aren't telling him to buttonhook at the blue line and give the puck up. They aren't telling him to bail out on every puck battle.

The coach doesn't have a controller where he can move the players around. Once the players hit the ice their play is it up to them.

Sorry but blaming Ward for Gaudreau's off year is scapegoating IMO.

All that said I'd be ecstatic to get a coaching upgrade. I just don't think it'll affect Gaudreau's poor play at all.

Look, I think it’s a little from column A and a little from column B

To be clear, I am not giving the players a pass at all. They are the ones doing stupid things. Johnny is the one skating in to 3 guys and coughing it up.

But sometimes when Johnny is doing this, his linemates aren’t nearby / finding open space / skating with him / giving him options. There are definitely system related problems beyond players’ personal level of motivation.

Opponents seem to give Johnny the path to the corner for that bad angle shot. It’s a failure to use teammates, it’s got the likelihood of a Hail Mary, and is an expected loss of possession. The coaches have to prepare him for that and give the other 4 guys instructions on where to go, so he has 2-3 options instead of just the shot. This is an example of sinking to your level of preparation.

It’s not just that the players don’t want it badly enough, which some people here seem to think it is. That is also scapegoating, to me.

Coaches need to identify things that fail repeatedly, prepare the team for them, and hold them accountable for repeated failure.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Coaches need to identify things that fail repeatedly, prepare the team for them, and hold them accountable for repeated failure.

Who's to say they haven't done exactly that? How can we know whether its more on the coaches preparation or on a guy like Gaudreau for not listening/adapting? Hockey is an instinctual game. You seem to think its as easy as telling someone but when you hit the ice there's less thinking and more reacting.

I mean Ward did drop Gaudreau down to the Lucic/Ryan line a couple times already. Seems like he's tried to hold him accountable for his garbage play at times.

We don't have the information to know what the real issue is. Hopefully Treliving does. You suspect the coaches aren't preparing enough. I suspect Gaudreau is complacent and isn't working hard at being the best he can. It's all conjecture at this point.

It will be interesting to see what Treliving does in regards to both the coaching and with Gaudreau this offseason.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Who's to say they haven't done exactly that? How can we know whether its more on the coaches preparation or on a guy like Gaudreau for not listening/adapting? Hockey is an instinctual game. You seem to think its as easy as telling someone but when you hit the ice there's less thinking and more reacting.

I mean Ward did drop Gaudreau down to the Lucic/Ryan line a couple times already. Seems like he's tried to hold him accountable for his garbage play at times.

We don't have the information to know what the real issue is. Hopefully Treliving does. You suspect the coaches aren't preparing enough. I suspect Gaudreau is complacent and isn't working hard at being the best he can. It's all conjecture at this point.

It will be interesting to see what Treliving does in regards to both the coaching and with Gaudreau this offseason.

Thanks for the patronizing description of what kind of game hockey is, friend. Well done.

You have entirely missed the boat on what I am saying. I don’t want the players to have to spend more time thinking.

You know what effective responses involve? Not needing to take time to think because you anticipate the situation, whether consciously or subconsciously.

I repeatedly point to one piece of information. The Flames are slow. They hold on to the puck and survey their options. That is a major problem that can only be solved starting with coaching.

Tic tac toe plays work and people love them because the puck moves more quickly than people.

I recall when Detroit was winning cups back in the day, an interview that discussed how they were coached somewhat like a football team. A good library of set plays. The onus was on the pass receiver to be in a place to receive the puck. And the passer does not need to think before they pass, so what is the result? Not stopping to think. Playing with pace

When Lindholm, Gaudreau and Monahan were pressing the play last year, they had many plays where the puck was on and off of their sticks in a hurry.

They are capable of it.

From watching, it appears clear that they are not putting emphasis on having a quick cohesive transition game, and getting the puck off of their sticks quickly.

And I agree that it will be interesting to see what happens. I’d love to see a coach that specifically implements a game plan leveraging player strengths because the roster is better than the on ice product .

[Enoch Root]

^ yup, the Flames are standing still in the neutral zone (not to mention playing in a shell, defensively).

Last year they were a transition team, and that was how they generated so much offense. At least until the playoffs, where they reverted to a conservative, chip and chase game.

They have never recovered.

And until they get a coach that has them playing the right way, I don't want to be too quick to run any of the players out of town.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I agree with Bingo - Lucic's game has fallen off a cliff in the last handful of games. For whatever reason.

Yeah he was as advertized for most of the season.

Good at getting pucks out, decent possession player that didn't score anymore but also didn't give much up. Has played on the most consistent line on the team all season.

Now he's noticeably slower. And the pucks die on his stick consistently.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

So let me get this straight, Peters had them playing a quick transition game and then this year he just abandoned it? Or maybe the players weren't executing it as well? Or maybe confidence is a bigger part of it than some of you are thinking?

Coaching might help. Or the coach may not help if these players are incapable of executing or don't have the confidence to execute. Coaching is the easy answer for fans.

You know what I've noticed? The only line over the last couple years that is competent offensively is any line Lindholm is on. That screams to me that there's some fundamental flaws with some of our forwards. Gaudreau seems useless this year without Lindholm.

If we ever want to be a team with multiple scoring lines we need some more forwards who can drive play. Gaudreau seems incapable of that anymore. I don't think its coaching, he's lost it IMO. Tkachuk and Lindholm have been fine. Monahan seems to be rounding out his game but he's been dragged down this year by Gaudreau's inability to maintain possession of the puck in the offensive zone.

Every year fans seem to think coaching is the issue (except last year.) There's no way the coaches are telling Gaudreau to play careless, scared hockey. Gaudreau is THE issue this year. His downfall has dragged his line down with him. I don't think coaching will change that one bit, he has fundamental flaws in his game right now. He isn't committed to battle out there, to be the best he can be.

[DeluxeMoustache]

^ that is just restating the same stuff. All of the blame on the players over the coach

Why are Gio and Brodie holding on to the pucks at the top of the d zone circles while the forwards go to the blue line, turn around and wait?

Because Johnny doesn’t care?

Give me a break

Why even bother hiring a coach? Just bring in a new motivational speaker every week. That oughta win you some games

Lol

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Yeah he was as advertized for most of the season.

Good at getting pucks out, decent possession player that didn't score anymore but also didn't give much up. Has played on the most consistent line on the team all season.

Now he's noticeably slower. And the pucks die on his stick consistently.

Honestly he looks now like he did the last 1.5 years in Edmonton no matter what the fancy stats said. Your last line there would be my exact description. I think the new team revitalization has seared off.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

^ that is just restating the same stuff. All of the blame on the players over the coach

Why are Gio and Brodie holding on to the pucks at the top of the d zone circles while the forwards go to the blue line, turn around and wait?

Because Johnny doesn’t care?

Give me a break

Why even bother hiring a coach? Just bring in a new motivational speaker every week. That oughta win you some games

Lol

Well after 4 coaches some of the core players deserve their fair share of the blame.

I think coaching could be upgraded. I hope it is in fact.

I just don't think that will magically solve the biggest problem the team has had this year, the scared, soft, careless play of Gaudreau.

I mean we're arguing about two separate issues here. I originally only took issue with your suggestion that a coaching change might turn Gaudreau into a Patrick Kane or a Mitch Marner. I think that's absurd to pin the difference on those players on the coach. It's quite clear that Gaudreau is no Kane and no coach is going to change that unless Johnny himself wants to change it.

Is there room for improvement in the coaching? Sure is. I'd love to get an upgrade there. But anyone suggesting Gaudreau's poor play is on the coach is out to lunch IMO.

[DeluxeMoustache]

And anyone suggesting that trying to execute an ill conceived and ineffective plan, and consequently failing repeatedly, is not demotivating, is out to lunch

[timbit]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

And anyone suggesting that trying to execute an ill conceived and ineffective plan, and consequently failing repeatedly, is not demotivating, is out to lunch

What is your well conceived and effective plan for coaching courage?

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by timbit

What is your well conceived and effective plan for coaching courage?

Hip listening party

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Hip listening party

What if they don’t get courage? What if they just Blow at High Dough?

[Calgary4LIfe]

Until this team gets a proven NHL coach, then there is no reason to be so definitive in any assertions that the problems are due to players not being able to execute - or worse, not caring to execute.


I don't expect a 4th line centre to perform as a top line centre just because he ends up being the top line centre.



This team's biggest Achilles heal has been a lack of good coaching.


In the last 25 years, this team has had exactly two coaches who have vastly out-performed expectations. 3 if you want to count Peters last season (regular season, but face-planted in the playoffs).


I don't buy the notion that the owners are too cheap to pay for a good coach. That's a stupid rationale that doesn't make a bit of sense. You don't think that businessmen who have built their empires know the value of hiring competent management?



Darryl Sutter - good coach, vastly exceeded expectations

Jim Playfair - poor coach, never held a head coaching position again
Mike Keenan - experienced (but semi-retired) coach - never held a head coaching position again
Brent Sutter - never held a head coaching position again
Bob Hartley - good coach, exceeded expectations (though got in his own way with his interpersonal skills)
Glen Gulutzan - doubtful he will ever hold a head coaching position again
Bill Peters - mixed results, probably will never hold another head coaching position again
Geoff Ward - I don't want to be so definitive on his early career, but he is not an experienced head coach at this point


This team is just as symptomatic as the late 2000's teams - the sum of their parts is less than they are individually on paper. This team - other than Giordano and Backlund - are completely different than they were in the late 2000's. They were great at times, but seemed incapable of playing with any consistency.


Now, I am ok with Treliving making some moves and adjusting the team. I just think that the logical first step is to secure the best coach you can. The reason I say this is that Treliving seems to have an idea of HOW he wants this team to play. That's fine. He seems to hire coaches that agree with the style of play. That was one of his requisites after dismissing Hartley.



Has he built a team that can play the way he wants? I don't know. Can't answer that question.


Maybe - just maybe - he should go out and try to land a Laviolette or a Gallant, and get his input on what kind of players to acquire, and which players are 'problems'.


I really do think that Darryl Sutter was a great coach AND a great GM - but after stepping down as coach, his GM moves became less impactful. It was like he lost that proverbial finger on the button in regards to his team. I don't know if Geoff Ward is experienced enough to help the GM keep up with the pulse of this team. Maybe he is, but I don't know. I know that Hartley and Feaster used to talk a lot. Burke and Hartley used to talk a lot as well. Does Treliving and Ward? I don't know.


What I do know is that this team has more success when they play a quick transition. Most teams today do, maybe with some exceptions if they are built heavily and are really strong defensively. I still remember Sutter breaking down the Flames a couple of years ago when he briefly worked as an analyst, and I felt he was bang-on with his analysis.


Backlund (and Frolik) are ideally suited as a shut-down third line chipping-in on offence.
Flames have to work on their transition - it was a scary transition before, but it looks slow now (once again, it was during Gulutzan's tenure).


I forgot what else he mentioned, but even this so-called 'dinosaur' who has his teams playing a defence-first, physical style eschewed the virtues of having that quick transition and slotting players properly.


I haven't seen that from Ward.


The "top RW Backlund" was a failure, and kept being a failure for way too long. Backlund has for many seasons been an elite-level defensive centre that chips-in offensively. Why convert an elite player at a certain position to another position is perplexing.


Finally when Backlund is returned to centre, he uses an elite-level 4th line centre as a top-line RW'er, even though he is neither quick enough or strong enough to chase pucks down and battle in the corners.


Hanifin-Hamonic were GREAT for a while together last season, but it fell apart at some time last season. They were our most underperforming pair in the playoffs. They continue to look terrible together. The logical thing to do is to try:


Giordano - Brodie - They are elite together
Hanifin - Andersson - they looked like a rock-solid complimentary pair in a short sample size
Kylington - Hamonic


That isn't tried. Ever. It is almost as if Ward is scared to relegate Hamonic to the third pairing. Not all his games are bad, but he has had more than his fair share of poor outings, and never seems to get relegated. Hanifin is becoming terrible. There is absolutely no noticeable synergy between these two players on the 2nd pairing. I guess with Stone coming into the line-up, it sort of makes sense to play him with Hanifin... but the Brodie - Hamonic pairing is terrible.



Hartley had a rule that I didn't know about that Sarich shared on-air (which he couldn't stand): Defencemen are NOT allowed to reverse the puck around the boards. Defencemen are to move the puck to a forward as quickly as possible over passing it to the other defence partner. Move the puck forward.


Now, I am sure there are instances where this doesn't work well, but for the most part, it just forces the D to move the puck faster, and makes it more difficult for the other team to set on defence. It is almost like the rule under Ward is that defencemen must pass back and forth a couple of times to make sure that both teams are set, and we will play them fairly.


With the exception of Hamonic, the Flames D all move the puck well, and they all skate with the puck well. Even Hamonic isn't atrocious at it or anything, but just the weakest link. Make use of them. Play them like racehorses instead of draft horses.


Making a trade and getting a Tyler Toffoli or someone of that calibre isn't going to completely change the Flames' fortunes - especially if they are still playing slow. What it does do is help players slot better. The first line will hopefully be a bit more impactful. The second line as well. Onto the third and fourth lines. Just having players better slotted helps quite a lot, even if you are not bringing in superstar.


Does this team need to be blown up? I don't think so.
Does this team have a rotten core? Maybe, but I doubt it.


I think the first step is to hire an experienced coach with a track record of turning teams around. A coach that has a few seasons' and a few different teams' worth of exceeding expectations.



I don't think it is a good idea to wait until the off-season unless you can't hire an experienced coach now (perhaps they are waiting for the off-season as well to see what their options may be). The reason I want this down now is because I want this coach to come in, get his finger on the pulse of this team, figure out what players are able to play the system he thinks is best for the make-up of the team, and give Treliving time for the deadline (unfortunately coming up too quickly now) and the off-season to try and make the right personnel adjustments. I would rather this happen now rather than hiring the coach in the off-season, not getting enough intimate knowledge with the players and their individual strengths/weaknesses. I want a coach to come in and really spend the rest of this season assessing the players and trying to get them playing well. Use the off-season to unload the poor fits and try to bring in better fits.


Progressively having less of a pulse on the team made Darryl acquire more wrong fits than right fits. He was simply magic at first on his trades. Hiring the wrong coaches was his biggest mistakes, however.


Feaster I think hit it out of the ballpark with Hartley, and there are few things that I can honestly praise Feaster about (the other being his mandate that this team play well even while rebuilding, and that there shouldn't be any excuses for poor play and poor games). Hartley had a short shelf life (that came to a screeching halt with how poor goaltending was that year).


Just once, hire an experienced coach with a track record of having his teams exceed expectations. This team has had a LONG track record of hiring inexperienced coaches hoping that they are the 'next big thing' (hitting on two - Bob Johnson, and arguably Terry Crisp), while missing on a bunch (Don Hay, Greg Gilbert, Jim Playfair) or hiring past their prime coaches.


One thing I remember from the young guns era (sorry for stirring up terrible memories there), was Brian Sutter. I always felt it was a mistake to hire him as the Flames then weren't a 'Sutter team' IMO. I thought it was a mistake to dismiss him as it was finally becoming a Sutter team. This is important as well - you want to hire a coach who can come in and implement a system that works well for the make-up of the team, minus some personnel adjustments.



Some inexperienced head coaches can come in with some great minds and seem to just know what to do. I am not against an inexperienced coach, but this team has a history of hiring inexperienced coaches who bombed more often than they succeeded.


Until I see a coach on this team that has a proven record of elevating the teams under him, I fail to see the argument that this is all the players fault and that this team needs to be blown the hell up. I think systems need an overhaul, I think that there should be some player movement, but I also do think that this team is playing below their capability.


Maybe I am wrong - if the Flames bring in a really good coach and they continue playing this inconsistent mediocre hockey after 20 games, I will also be joining the crowd that is hoping for a major shake-up, and I will question the core. I just would feel a lot more confident in my opinion if I knew the Flames had a good coach to begin with. Just changing a poor coach for another poor coach isn't answering any questions that I have when it comes to this team.