Lets ignore the polls and go with whatever bull#### the establishment and their pals in the media are cooking up this week. Only a populist candidate will win in November, either run Sanders who gives you a chance heads up, or let Trump beat another centrist loser.
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Really, we're worrying about catering to the racists now? Those people are going to vote for Trump regardless of who the candidate. By rigging the nomination process like this, the Democrats risk alienating the type of people they need to turnout to win.
It's actually hilarious how off base and utterly tone deaf the "Trump voters won't vote for a socialist like Bernie" take is. Bernie has more crossover support from Trump voters than anyone. They don't give a #### about policy or ideology, they want someone to tear down Washington. Centrist media outlets hate him? Great, we hate them, he's our guy.
Sanders and Yang are the only candidates who more than 10% of Trump voters say they would abandon trump for. If you aren't completely hypnotized by what the New York Times thinks should matter to voters, it's not that tough to understand why.
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Really, we're worrying about catering to the racists now? Those people are going to vote for Trump regardless of who the candidate. By rigging the nomination process like this, the Democrats risk alienating the type of people they need to turnout to win.
Elections are won and lost on getting the vote out. If you give people a reason to get off their asses and out to the polls, they'll act. Right now the Republicans are pissing off a lot of their voters and it is depressing their desire to go to the polls. Give them something to get fired up about and you're going to see them come out in numbers again. Conversely, go too far to the extreme for the Dems and you lose the independents. Bernie doesn't sell with independents, so you are going to encourage them to not vote or go to the other ticket. That's how you lose elections. If Democrat voters are so stupid as to decide to repeat the last Bernie #### show, then they deserve to lose.
Bernie is not viable and his supporters need to bite the bullet and recognize the importance of getting behind the party and defeating Trump. Otherwise, #### them. They are more responsible for what is happening in this country than the Trump supporters. They had the votes that could have prevented him from being in office in the first place, but they acted like petulant children, not voting or voting for Trump instead. We are where we are because of "Bernie" voters and them putting their team first over their own values and interests.
Elections are won and lost on getting the vote out. If you give people a reason to get off their asses and out to the polls, they'll act. Right now the Republicans are pissing off a lot of their voters and it is depressing their desire to go to the polls. Give them something to get fired up about and you're going to see them come out in numbers again. Conversely, go too far to the extreme for the Dems and you lose the independents. Bernie doesn't sell with independents, so you are going to encourage them to not vote or go to the other ticket. That's how you lose elections. If Democrat voters are so stupid as to decide to repeat the last Bernie #### show, then they deserve to lose.
Bernie is not viable and his supporters need to bite the bullet and recognize the importance of getting behind the party and defeating Trump. Otherwise, #### them. They are more responsible for what is happening in this country than the Trump supporters. They had the votes that could have prevented him from being in office in the first place, but they acted like petulant children, not voting or voting for Trump instead. We are where we are because of "Bernie" voters and them putting their team first over their own values and interests.
That is just stupid. Seriously, just really stupid.
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Allow Krystal to obliterate your CNN-generated views about Sanders' electability.
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That is just stupid. Seriously, just really stupid.
There's also zero evidence for the idea that Bernie bros no showed on Hillary. She received 100k less votes than Obama got in 2012.
The centrist orthodoxy these last three years lacks any form of introspection. Lead around by the nose into a half dozen sham we got him nothingburgers.
That is just stupid. Seriously, just really stupid.
It's really not though, Sanders supporters hated Clinton to the point of not voting and in some cases changed completely and voted Trump, when Sanders finally bows out he better get behind the nominee and his/hers values 100%.
If Sanders looses the hawkeye state causus he needs to FO and retire back to the senate
There's also zero evidence for the idea that Bernie bros no showed on Hillary. She received 100k less votes than Obama got in 2012.
The centrist orthodoxy these last three years lacks any form of introspection. Lead around by the nose into a half dozen sham we got him nothingburgers.
The #NeverHillary tag on twitter was real and it's said 24% of would-be Sanders voters either stayed home, wasted a vote on Gary Johnson or Jill Stein and 10-12% voted for the orange goblin.
As I've said before, I really do believe that the liberal arts should be universalized as much as possible for the benefits of students, but that university is often a poor medium for teaching them until you get to advanced undergraduate and graduate school classes where the numbers of students are small enough to facilitate adequate reflection and discussion between the teacher and a student's peers.
The public school system is such a failure on every level - concerned more with the industrial churning of students out to graduation to fulfill funding metrics instead of actual education.
I teach at a university where we try to do exactly what you're talking about, even in the 1st year. The problem is, when you create that environment it drives up tuition costs (more classrooms, fewer students per professor's salary or administrator's salary) and makes university quite expensive.
We also cater quite a bit to those with learning differences/disabilities, but this also drives up our tuition costs with additional tutoring programs, evaluations, specialized counseling, etc.
Basically, the ideal education we all hope for costs a lot, and those students that come from lower income backgrounds are those who need this ideal education more than anyone. Scholarships, grants, and other government subsidies can only do so much, and so some students never get the opportunity to learn in that environment.
The other option is cheaper, but more generalized education that isn't very effective for students both intellectually or in terms of career development. So you can create access to affordable education, but it won't do much for their upward mobility in the society.
There's no perfect solution that I can think of. Anyone who thinks they have a magic bullet answer is either kidding themselves or hasn't spent enough time looking at this issue.
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That is just stupid. Seriously, just really stupid.
It's not. This is pretty much an accepted facts in political circles. Sanders voters were a disruptive block and were the tipping point. Clinton is largely to blame for this as she did not work to bring their voting block into the fold, but it was a large chunk of Sanders supporters that abandoned the Democrats and voted for Trump out of spite. You can call it stupid - and it was on their part - but its what happened.
Quote:
Originally Posted by burn_this_city
There's also zero evidence for the idea that Bernie bros no showed on Hillary. She received 100k less votes than Obama got in 2012.
The centrist orthodoxy these last three years lacks any form of introspection. Lead around by the nose into a half dozen sham we got him nothingburgers.
Now this is stupid. "Nothingburgers" which included piles of evidence of crimes, more charges and convictions than there were in Watergate, and a "trial" where no witnesses or evidence was brought forward to protect Trump? That just ignorance of the facts, pretending that corruption in the Republican party doesn't exist, and believing that everything that has happened in the past four years (it seems like forty) had no impact to our country, society, and culture.
If Sanders is such a great leader, and the last great hope for this country, what has he done the last four years to change anything, to hold the Trump administration in check, or be a voice of reason against the abuses we've seen? Bernie Sanders is a populist figure, but he hasn't done anything to show leadership at a time when the country has needed it the most. If anything, Sanders has been hiding in the background waiting to campaign again rather than putting himself out there as the foil to the administration. Where is Sanders' voice in the senate right now, and standing up yelling from the rooftops that our democracy is under attack and the actions of the Republicans are not only immoral, but counter to their responsibilities as defined by the constitution?
If Sanders is such a great leader, and the last great hope for this country, what has he done the last four years to change anything, to hold the Trump administration in check, or be a voice of reason against the abuses we've seen? Bernie Sanders is a populist figure, but he hasn't done anything to show leadership at a time when the country has needed it the most. If anything, Sanders has been hiding in the background waiting to campaign again rather than putting himself out there as the foil to the administration. Where is Sanders' voice in the senate right now, and standing up yelling from the rooftops that our democracy is under attack and the actions of the Republicans are not only immoral, but counter to their responsibilities as defined by the constitution?
I can't speak for him, but I imagine that he isn't interested in wasting his time dealing with the elected Republican senators, and for good reason seeing the events carried out this week. He knows the only way to make the changes we need is to get elected and take back the houses. Yelling at Republicans is pointless since they are shameless and not willing to change a vote under any circumstances.
If you were in his shoes knowing the inner workings of the senate, would you bother trying to do anything in that corrupt house? Exactly.
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"You know, that's kinda why I came here, to show that I don't suck that much" ~ Devin Cooley, Professional Goaltender
I think it is very likely that Sanders supporters were key in tipping the rust belt states. Whether that was done in spite towards Clinton and the party or they bought into Trump's message is questionable though. Probably some of both.
Sanders looks like a lock to win those rust belt states over Trump. However, he risks losing a lot of other light blue states and swing states in other parts of the country.
This whole talk that only elites want a centrist ignores all the suburbanites who are fairly moderate, and fairly against socialist policies. This is the group that has been making blue waves in the last few mid term votes.
The video above touts the popularity of medicare for all, but ignores all the polls that show it being very unpopular when it is explained to them that they will lose their employer coverage. This is where I see Sanders falling apart in the general election. The other democrats are going pretty light on tearing down Sanders policies as to not alienate the left wing. But in a general election, there will be all sorts of ads from all sorts of groups reinforcing the fact people will lose their employee coverage and tearing down some of Sanders other overly simplistic policies.
That polling is interesting but it's based on the idea of Biden and the idea of Sanders.
If Biden is the nominee and gets all the attention his flaws will be exposed. Those flaws include a sometimes questionable voting record, the Anita Hill debacle, decades of being a corporatist stooge, his habit of touching women, his habit of saying stupid #### and the oodles of evidence that he may not completely 'be there' anymore.
Bernie will have a similar spotlight particularly when it comes to his recent health issues and economic policies.
I think it's too early to know exactly what will happen with either of them vs Trump. What needs to happen is to shrink the Democratic field down to two, one moderate and one progressive, let them go at it, and then gauge their electibility in swing states.
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I love the blatant hypocrisy of "Sanders voters need to just suck it up and vote for whoever gets Trump out," but Biden voters who won't for Sanders are somehow absolved of the same responsibility. It seems like for centrist voters that the most important thing is to get Trump out, only if it's there candidate that gets in.
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I love the blatant hypocrisy of "Sanders voters need to just suck it up and vote for whoever gets Trump out," but Biden voters who won't for Sanders are somehow absolved of the same responsibility. It seems like for centrist voters that the most important thing is to get Trump out, only if it's there candidate that gets in.
What in the ####???
You're complaining abut something that hasn't happened and is unlikely to happen. Given the stakes I hope to god that voters don't behave like they did last election and get behind the party that best represents their core values and doesn't do something stupid and throw their vote away. But this is America, and anything is possible. But I think we should stop complaining about something that has yet to happen. At least with Bernie voters we have data and history to show this is a distinct possibility. The other perspective has not yet had a chance to show their colors.
Full disclosure. I was a Bernie supporter in 2016 and hated Clinton with the heat of 10,000 suns. Can't stand the shrew. But when it came to the election I held my nose and voted for the candidate that best represented my values. We would be much better off as a nation of everyone had done that.
Last edited by Lanny_McDonald; 02-01-2020 at 09:01 AM.
I can't speak for him, but I imagine that he isn't interested in wasting his time dealing with the elected Republican senators, and for good reason seeing the events carried out this week. He knows the only way to make the changes we need is to get elected and take back the houses. Yelling at Republicans is pointless since they are shameless and not willing to change a vote under any circumstances.
If you were in his shoes knowing the inner workings of the senate, would you bother trying to do anything in that corrupt house? Exactly.
So silence and appeasement is the proper course to take? Now we know why Democrats have a reputation of being spineless boobs.
If you take an oath to protect the constitution, and you don't have the balls to stand up and at least speak out against the abuses that are going on, you are just as complicit as those abusing the constitution. Every senator in that chamber should be punted. The Republicans for not following their oath, and the Democrats for not doing everything in their power to stop the abuses.
If I were in Sanders' shoes I would be in front of the news cameras and on the talk shows every day outlining the very abuses the Republicans are undertaking. I would be reminding the American people every single day that the very institutions that this country was founded on are being attacked and dismantled by the Republicans in a gross power grab. I would be speaking truth to power at every opportunity, but that requires courage, honor, and integrity. All of those qualities are in very short supply in this congress, and it is embarrassing.
Democrats are every bit responsible for this mess as Republicans. The Republicans are mugging the constitution, and instead of taking action to prevent it, or calling for help, the Democrats are looking the other way and doing the absolute minimum to hinder the process. The election won't matter if this sham is successful. All norms will have been shattered and the United States will officially be nothing but a banana republic with nuclear weapons.
I love the blatant hypocrisy of "Sanders voters need to just suck it up and vote for whoever gets Trump out," but Biden voters who won't for Sanders are somehow absolved of the same responsibility. It seems like for centrist voters that the most important thing is to get Trump out, only if it's there candidate that gets in.
Yes, even if it's Bloomberg
DNC: “We can’t support Bernie because he’s NOT A DEMOCRAT.”
Also DNC: “Let’s change our rules to benefit a Republican mayor who campaigned for GW Bush, championed stop and frisk, and was generally oppressive to Muslims and racial minorities!”
It’s almost like “being a Democrat” has nothing whatsoever to do with policy and is all about keeping money flowing to the right lobbyists and consultants. The fact that Sanders doesn’t do that, and is still a prominent US Senator, is why they despise him.
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The graphs show that the majority of so called Bros weren't even Democrats to begin with. 10% were considered strong Democrats that voted for Trump. Sanders appears to have brought in populist support from Republicans and Independents. Caveats also mentioned significant numbers of Republican primary voters came out for Hillary. There is probably a great deal of this swing in every election since primaries aren't the general.
Quote:
Originally Posted by New Era
It's not. This is pretty much an accepted facts in political circles. Sanders voters were a disruptive block and were the tipping point. Clinton is largely to blame for this as she did not work to bring their voting block into the fold, but it was a large chunk of Sanders supporters that abandoned the Democrats and voted for Trump out of spite. You can call it stupid - and it was on their part - but its what happened.
Now this is stupid. "Nothingburgers" which included piles of evidence of crimes, more charges and convictions than there were in Watergate, and a "trial" where no witnesses or evidence was brought forward to protect Trump? That just ignorance of the facts, pretending that corruption in the Republican party doesn't exist, and believing that everything that has happened in the past four years (it seems like forty) had no impact to our country, society, and culture.
If Sanders is such a great leader, and the last great hope for this country, what has he done the last four years to change anything, to hold the Trump administration in check, or be a voice of reason against the abuses we've seen? Bernie Sanders is a populist figure, but he hasn't done anything to show leadership at a time when the country has needed it the most. If anything, Sanders has been hiding in the background waiting to campaign again rather than putting himself out there as the foil to the administration. Where is Sanders' voice in the senate right now, and standing up yelling from the rooftops that our democracy is under attack and the actions of the Republicans are not only immoral, but counter to their responsibilities as defined by the constitution?
A certain amount of crossover and flips happen in every general election. It goes back to populist vs. establishment, a significant number of people weren't interested in a continuation of the Obama years.
Sanders has been forceful in denouncing Trump as the most corrupt President in modern American history. There's enough populist crossover that it's probably wise to stay above the fray. Someone posted recently that upwards of 10% of Trump voters would vote for Sanders in the general.
After three years of shouting about decorum, corruption, norms and guardrails ect what has been accomplished? Trump hasn't been checked at all, because the Senate is firmly stacked in his favor. The entire Impeachment debacle was a waste of time, and now Trump will run on being acquitted and the do nothing Democrats were trying to undo our glorious, historic 2016 win.
